5 ms·

Oh nice, looks like we finally figured out the meaning of life, the universe, why we’re here, etc: > a solid, practical job. ffs Edit to be a bit less flippa

by eunoia 5y ago

Oh nice, looks like we finally figured out the meaning of life, the universe, why we’re here, etc: > a solid, practical job. ffs Edit to be a bit less flippant: As a holder of a “solid, practical job” for over a decade I definitely feel there should be more to life and don’t fault those who aspired for more than just practicality at the age of 17/18.

tptacek 5y ago
There is more to life than a solid, practical job, but there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings ("don't you understand that the journey", proponents would argue, "is about so much more than the destination!").
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings Let's be aware of our bias toward our own knowledge and work. Knowledge of humanities and social sciences is not a luxury; it addresses almost all the critical issues in society - freedom, peace, war, prosperity, politics, economics, human nature through which it all happens, communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc. etc. All things more important than whatever most of us do.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!), and wouldn't be even if tuition were free. The arts are important too, but owning a Renoir is still a luxury. I reject the argument that taking 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" is "more important" than "whatever most of us do", and I reject it for a bunch of reasons, not just the obvious one that taking a class on power is not the same thing is engaging with power.
    - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
      Which is why lawyers and media operators run the country. While you're rejecting the argument, they're using it against you. And you're being persuaded by them. Successfully. While still being convinced that the status quo isn't just the best of all possible worlds, everything you believe about it is your own idea.
      - tptacek 5y ago
        I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I can't even tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      Perhaps cutting to the chase: I'm aware that it's popular to discount those issues and education in those areas, but I think that just a little critical thought shows that the situation is quite the opposite, and on a very serious, urgent level: The issues are tearing apart our society and world, and it doesn't hold any water to say that we do not need to study these very difficult issues (we can see how human society has performed through most of history) and that we won't benefit from all the prior and contemporary knowledge in humanity. Why wouldn't you study what the ancient Greeks, Enlightenment thinkers, etc. have to say about it, and study it now, urgently? Addressing some details, in case the paragraph above misunderstands you, thought I think these are a bit too much in the weeds: > A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!) Availability doesn't define luxury. When food is unavailable to most of the population, it still isn't a luxury. But we're not here to define words; I think the core issue is that, IMHO, such issues in the liberal arts are critical to the individuals and to our society. > 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" Reducing essential knowledge on these issues to just "courses" is like reducing knowledge about food supply to 'courses'. It's not 'courses', obviously, any more than nuclear weapons nonproliferation agreements are 'paper'. The idea that you know without studying is hard to fathom (beyond the popular trend) - how does the knowledge get into your head? Should we all rediscover through personal experience the most brilliant in human history have discoverd over billions of lifetimes? It seems a bit unlikley and inefficient.
stemlord 5y ago
There likely won't be more to the lives of those in deep loan debt after receiving a visual arts degree, except that their jobs may be less than solid
friedman23 5y ago
This feely bullshit thinking is what got these dumb kids into the problem in the first place. There is more to life than a job? Sure maybe there is, maybe there isn't either. The point is that people that make dumb decisions cuz feels and passion don't get bailed out by people that make practical and rational decisions. Live with your feels in massive debt, not my problem.
- soared 5y ago
  Yea, let’s punish the 18 year olds who hoped they might be able to follow their passion instead of getting a business degree and sitting behind a desk for 40 years. Are their decisions good ones? No, not really. But at 18 I can’t really fault someone for not understanding the decades long implications of interest payments and job market dynamics.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Should we bail out 18 year olds making other bad decisions. Let say entering some type of illegal business. Or maybe just maxing out credit-cards, payday loans and so on and gambling all that money?
    - soared 5y ago
      We have protections around those things so kids don’t do them. With student loans we have the exact opposite of protections.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I'm pretty sure we don't have protections against cc debt. An 18 year old can get 10 cards and run up 100k debt
    - lostdog 5y ago
      Yes, and for all adults we should too. It shouldn't be possible to take out so much debt on such bad terms that you fuck up your life. Bankruptcy should be available for these cases, and lenders should be responsible for checking that an applicant is capable of paying back a loan.
dehrmann 5y ago
> I definitely feel there should be more to life... I agree, I just have no interest in subsidizing it.
rayiner 5y ago
There is more to life—a solid practical job is just how you pay for that.

by eunoia 5y ago

tptacek 5y ago

There is more to life than a solid, practical job, but there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings ("don't you understand that the journey", proponents would argue, "is about so much more than the destination!").

wolverine876 5y ago
> there isn't much more to what the government should subsidize, for the same reason the government shouldn't provide universal free yacht moorings Let's be aware of our bias toward our own knowledge and work. Knowledge of humanities and social sciences is not a luxury; it addresses almost all the critical issues in society - freedom, peace, war, prosperity, politics, economics, human nature through which it all happens, communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc. etc. All things more important than whatever most of us do.
- tptacek 5y ago
  A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!), and wouldn't be even if tuition were free. The arts are important too, but owning a Renoir is still a luxury. I reject the argument that taking 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" is "more important" than "whatever most of us do", and I reject it for a bunch of reasons, not just the obvious one that taking a class on power is not the same thing is engaging with power.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    Which is why lawyers and media operators run the country. While you're rejecting the argument, they're using it against you. And you're being persuaded by them. Successfully. While still being convinced that the status quo isn't just the best of all possible worlds, everything you believe about it is your own idea.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I can't even tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Perhaps cutting to the chase: I'm aware that it's popular to discount those issues and education in those areas, but I think that just a little critical thought shows that the situation is quite the opposite, and on a very serious, urgent level: The issues are tearing apart our society and world, and it doesn't hold any water to say that we do not need to study these very difficult issues (we can see how human society has performed through most of history) and that we won't benefit from all the prior and contemporary knowledge in humanity. Why wouldn't you study what the ancient Greeks, Enlightenment thinkers, etc. have to say about it, and study it now, urgently? Addressing some details, in case the paragraph above misunderstands you, thought I think these are a bit too much in the weeds: > A post-secondary 4-year education in the humanities is a luxury almost by definition, since it is not available to a substantial portion of the population (including many who attend 4-year college!) Availability doesn't define luxury. When food is unavailable to most of the population, it still isn't a luxury. But we're not here to define words; I think the core issue is that, IMHO, such issues in the liberal arts are critical to the individuals and to our society. > 4 years of courses on "communication, conflict, power, democracy, capitalism, communism, etc" Reducing essential knowledge on these issues to just "courses" is like reducing knowledge about food supply to 'courses'. It's not 'courses', obviously, any more than nuclear weapons nonproliferation agreements are 'paper'. The idea that you know without studying is hard to fathom (beyond the popular trend) - how does the knowledge get into your head? Should we all rediscover through personal experience the most brilliant in human history have discoverd over billions of lifetimes? It seems a bit unlikley and inefficient.

stemlord 5y ago

There likely won't be more to the lives of those in deep loan debt after receiving a visual arts degree, except that their jobs may be less than solid

friedman23 5y ago

This feely bullshit thinking is what got these dumb kids into the problem in the first place. There is more to life than a job? Sure maybe there is, maybe there isn't either. The point is that people that make dumb decisions cuz feels and passion don't get bailed out by people that make practical and rational decisions. Live with your feels in massive debt, not my problem.

soared 5y ago
Yea, let’s punish the 18 year olds who hoped they might be able to follow their passion instead of getting a business degree and sitting behind a desk for 40 years. Are their decisions good ones? No, not really. But at 18 I can’t really fault someone for not understanding the decades long implications of interest payments and job market dynamics.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Should we bail out 18 year olds making other bad decisions. Let say entering some type of illegal business. Or maybe just maxing out credit-cards, payday loans and so on and gambling all that money?
  - soared 5y ago
    We have protections around those things so kids don’t do them. With student loans we have the exact opposite of protections.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure we don't have protections against cc debt. An 18 year old can get 10 cards and run up 100k debt
  - lostdog 5y ago
    Yes, and for all adults we should too. It shouldn't be possible to take out so much debt on such bad terms that you fuck up your life. Bankruptcy should be available for these cases, and lenders should be responsible for checking that an applicant is capable of paying back a loan.

dehrmann 5y ago

> I definitely feel there should be more to life... I agree, I just have no interest in subsidizing it.

rayiner 5y ago

There is more to life—a solid practical job is just how you pay for that.