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>Say what you will about GTK and Gnome... for beginners on an operating system such as Ubuntu, having a consistent application concept is very important. Consi

>Say what you will about GTK and Gnome... for beginners on an operating system such as Ubuntu, having a consistent application concept is very important. Consistency is important but is not like the majority of the apps are GTK3 (or whatever is latest) with the GNOME styles even if those GNOME designers pretend nothing else exists and nobody should remove the GNOME branding from the GNOME apps. Just want to mention that GNOME are the bad guys, KDE distributions will provide GNOME integration with packages and themes that attempt to keep Qt and GTK application consistent in look and feel but I never seen GNOME distros attempt to integrate with the non-GNOME apps.

sph 5y ago
> GNOME are the bad guys Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't make them the "bad guys".
- jrm4 5y ago
  Right. What actually makes them the bad guys is that they parlayed the goodwill of the original GNOME (2 and prior) which was very open to change and community contribution into the restrictive community hostile thing that it is today. I don't mind that it exists, but they should have changed the name and been more clear about the direction. And should just be less obnoxious all around.
  - spindle 5y ago
    Good point which I hadn't thought of. I really like GNOME 4 for my own workflow, but it doesn't have much in common with GNOME 2.
    - pantalaimon 5y ago
      MATE is carrying on the torch
- _2paq 5y ago
  They're making their desktop environment and apps into a walled garden on a platform like Linux. Most GTK4 apps won't be usable outside the intended desktop environment for which they're built. They also engage in carefully crafted doublespeak when it comes to things like extensions and user choice regarding configuration. Call it what you want but they certainly don't intend to play nice with anyone and have adopted the approach of "my way or the highway". Perhaps they're emboldened by all the corporate backing they have from Red Hat and SUSE. They also have the advantage of being the default DE on most distros. Hell, even distros like NixOS encourage users to use GNOME, which is absolutely insane when you think about it.
  - mechanical_bear 5y ago
    I don’t know the intricacies of the politics at play here, so could you explain why this is “insane”?
    - _2paq 5y ago
      I guess this is just my opinion but NixOS is probably the most esoteric Linux distribution I've used. Anyone who intends to use NixOS comfortably probably isn't apprehensive about configuration and customization, things which are the antithesis of everything GNOME stands for. I fail to see why GNOME, or any DE for that matter, is something that should be recommended by a distribution like NixOS.
      - SkyMarshal 5y ago
        Being the default and thereby “recommended” desktop in NixOS a lot different than in other distro’s. In other distro’s, to get a non-default desktop, you have to download a whole different distro “spin”, like Kubuntu. Or add the new desktop packages and manually configure them all. With NixOS you use the same install image, and just change two or three lines in the master configuration.nix file, and re/build. You can change back and forth between DE’s that use different window managers with a reboot, or between DE’s that use the same window manager with a relog [3]. Most the major desktops are supported in NixOS [1][2]. Gnome being the default means little, is easy to change should NixOS community ever form a consensus about changing the default (say in response to Gnome crossing some line), and is easy for end users to change any time. —— # Gnome services.xserver.enable = true; services.xserver.displayManager.gdm.enable = true; services.xserver.desktopManager.gnome.enable = true; —— # KDE services.xserver.enable = true; services.xserver.displayManager.sddm.enable = true; services.xserver.desktopManager.plasma5.enable = true; —— [1]:More info: https://nixos.org/manual/nixos/stable/index.html#sec-x11 https://nixos.org/manual/nixos/stable/index.html#sec-x11 [2]:Supported desktops: https://search.nixos.org/options?channel=21.11&from=0&size=50&sort=relevance&type=packages&query=DesktopManager https://search.nixos.org/options?channel=21.11&from=0&size=5... [3]:https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/otnfq6/i3_or_sway_why_not_both_how_to_have_duel_window/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/otnfq6/i3_or_sway_wh...
- smoldesu 5y ago
  I would agree if a. Their development team was more professional (locking threads when feedback starts coming in, making offhand derogatory comments about people's reading comprehension skills, trying to minimize serious problems to avoid dealing with merge requests/more work, blaming downstream actors like PopOS! for simply using their software and disagreeing with their ethos, etc.) b. They used their funding to actually fix issues (GTK4 still has text rendering issues. 8 months later. Insert obligatory "thumbnail file picker" comment here) c. They didn't regress features that previously worked (No more extensions, no more desktop tweaks, overall fewer settings in new releases, design upgrades that are decidedly opinionated) d. They didn't treat their opinions as gospel (eg. encouraging Flatpak-or-die culture when Flatpak itself is still in it's infancy and wildly unstable, going out of their way to obfuscate theming interfaces, having "one guy" come up with a new design for something and implementing it before the community decides if it's something they want) Yeah, I think I am comfortable calling them "the bad guys" in the current landscape of Linux. GTK's team is still fine (barely) but the overall effort to combine the two, add middleware like libadwaita, move fast and break things, and blame it on the user when things stop working is just getting to be asinine. They can have a vision if they want, but it shouldn't have to come at the expanse of the rest of the community. That's how you burn goodwill.
  - axiolite 5y ago
    > GTK's team is still fine (barely) Really? Isn't GTK where the CSD (client side decoration) is being forced onto every app, with no way to use native/normal window manager borders? It seems rather widely despised: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16241923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16241923 https://old.reddit.com/r/xfce/comments/lcj7cq/why_is_csd_bad/ https://old.reddit.com/r/xfce/comments/lcj7cq/why_is_csd_bad...
    - phkahler 5y ago
      Yeah, that goes against everything Wayland.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      That's more of a GNOME effort, if I'm being honest. It's a feature that's provided via GTK's libraries, but the whole "we're going to add CSD and you're not going to do anything about it" has been more of a GNOME sentiment[0]. [0] https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/
- simion314 5y ago
  >Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't make them the "bad guys". I was replying on the consistency topic. some projects offer the user a consistent experience by offering both Qt/GTK support and others don't care and would rather force their branding on you.
- bayindirh 5y ago
  > Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't make them the "bad guys". Since the KDE 3.5.x days, it's always KDE guys who try to build corresponding GTK themes of the themes they default on the corresponding release, or build corresponding Qt themes of the GTK themes put forward as default by the GNOME guys. Moreover, there are always ways to make GNOME subsystems work well on KDE systems, and KDE guys always make sure that the standards they propose work with the GNOME without much hassle. Also, KDE guys put forward cross-DE ways to make user experience better (XDG base folder specification, for example). OTOH, GNOME people sit on their high thrones like they're the only game in town. I respect them deeply, but I can't appreciate them just because they auto-generated their JS introspection layer from C code automatically, but didn't bother to write any documentation, because you can try it all in the built-in JS console. I have a couple of more, lower level stories with them, which caused a lot of all-nighters and project postponements, but that's for another comment. Their attitude is not helpful.
- OOPMan 5y ago
  They may not be bad people, but their GUI framework is pretty bad.
ravenstine 5y ago
As much as I think that GNOME is a joke at this point (and has been for well over a decade), is that really such a bad thing that they focus on supporting their graphical toolkit of choice? Besides, the real solution here is for developers to switch to QT and stop using GTK. ;)
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  Qt, unfortunately, by nature of being C++, is much harder to link into a different language. GTK is a plain C API. So, if you’re using plain C, Rust, C#, etc, it’s a heck of a lot easier to use GTK than Qt.
  - simion314 5y ago
    The thing is that GNOME project and GNOME based distros should put just a bit of effort to support Qt programs, like have the same File Picker Dialog or even have GTK2 and GTK3 use the same fucking File Picker or at least with the same fucking File Sorting. About easy of use I am sure that you are more productive with a professional toolkit like Qt and a mature language like c++ then fucking around with some broken/incomplete/buggy C# or Rust GTK bindings. Though I think you can do simple Python apps with GTK GUIs but for professional applications that are targeting crossplatform trust me Qt is the solution (I never seen a good GUI cross platform pro application , Linus Torvalds himself used Qt for his app because his Red Hat friends could not answer him on how to do some complex GUI in GTK)
    - tadfisher 5y ago
      You get the DE's file chooser if you use xdg-desktop-portal, which has a KDE backend.
      - simion314 5y ago
        This is a recent development and that was designed to support GNOME/RedHat's flatpack , we should not get tricked to believe GNOME would have done this for helping someone else then themselves(do they support this in GTK2 apps too?, I really hate having different file choser with different sorting order of files and folders)

sph 5y ago

> GNOME are the bad guys Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't make them the "bad guys".

jrm4 5y ago
Right. What actually makes them the bad guys is that they parlayed the goodwill of the original GNOME (2 and prior) which was very open to change and community contribution into the restrictive community hostile thing that it is today. I don't mind that it exists, but they should have changed the name and been more clear about the direction. And should just be less obnoxious all around.
- spindle 5y ago
  Good point which I hadn't thought of. I really like GNOME 4 for my own workflow, but it doesn't have much in common with GNOME 2.
  - pantalaimon 5y ago
    MATE is carrying on the torch
_2paq 5y ago
They're making their desktop environment and apps into a walled garden on a platform like Linux. Most GTK4 apps won't be usable outside the intended desktop environment for which they're built. They also engage in carefully crafted doublespeak when it comes to things like extensions and user choice regarding configuration. Call it what you want but they certainly don't intend to play nice with anyone and have adopted the approach of "my way or the highway". Perhaps they're emboldened by all the corporate backing they have from Red Hat and SUSE. They also have the advantage of being the default DE on most distros. Hell, even distros like NixOS encourage users to use GNOME, which is absolutely insane when you think about it.
- mechanical_bear 5y ago
  I don’t know the intricacies of the politics at play here, so could you explain why this is “insane”?
  - _2paq 5y ago
    I guess this is just my opinion but NixOS is probably the most esoteric Linux distribution I've used. Anyone who intends to use NixOS comfortably probably isn't apprehensive about configuration and customization, things which are the antithesis of everything GNOME stands for. I fail to see why GNOME, or any DE for that matter, is something that should be recommended by a distribution like NixOS.
    - SkyMarshal 5y ago
      Being the default and thereby “recommended” desktop in NixOS a lot different than in other distro’s. In other distro’s, to get a non-default desktop, you have to download a whole different distro “spin”, like Kubuntu. Or add the new desktop packages and manually configure them all. With NixOS you use the same install image, and just change two or three lines in the master configuration.nix file, and re/build. You can change back and forth between DE’s that use different window managers with a reboot, or between DE’s that use the same window manager with a relog [3]. Most the major desktops are supported in NixOS [1][2]. Gnome being the default means little, is easy to change should NixOS community ever form a consensus about changing the default (say in response to Gnome crossing some line), and is easy for end users to change any time. —— # Gnome services.xserver.enable = true; services.xserver.displayManager.gdm.enable = true; services.xserver.desktopManager.gnome.enable = true; —— # KDE services.xserver.enable = true; services.xserver.displayManager.sddm.enable = true; services.xserver.desktopManager.plasma5.enable = true; —— [1]:More info: https://nixos.org/manual/nixos/stable/index.html#sec-x11 https://nixos.org/manual/nixos/stable/index.html#sec-x11 [2]:Supported desktops: https://search.nixos.org/options?channel=21.11&from=0&size=50&sort=relevance&type=packages&query=DesktopManager https://search.nixos.org/options?channel=21.11&from=0&size=5... [3]:https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/otnfq6/i3_or_sway_why_not_both_how_to_have_duel_window/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NixOS/comments/otnfq6/i3_or_sway_wh...
smoldesu 5y ago
I would agree if a. Their development team was more professional (locking threads when feedback starts coming in, making offhand derogatory comments about people's reading comprehension skills, trying to minimize serious problems to avoid dealing with merge requests/more work, blaming downstream actors like PopOS! for simply using their software and disagreeing with their ethos, etc.) b. They used their funding to actually fix issues (GTK4 still has text rendering issues. 8 months later. Insert obligatory "thumbnail file picker" comment here) c. They didn't regress features that previously worked (No more extensions, no more desktop tweaks, overall fewer settings in new releases, design upgrades that are decidedly opinionated) d. They didn't treat their opinions as gospel (eg. encouraging Flatpak-or-die culture when Flatpak itself is still in it's infancy and wildly unstable, going out of their way to obfuscate theming interfaces, having "one guy" come up with a new design for something and implementing it before the community decides if it's something they want) Yeah, I think I am comfortable calling them "the bad guys" in the current landscape of Linux. GTK's team is still fine (barely) but the overall effort to combine the two, add middleware like libadwaita, move fast and break things, and blame it on the user when things stop working is just getting to be asinine. They can have a vision if they want, but it shouldn't have to come at the expanse of the rest of the community. That's how you burn goodwill.
- axiolite 5y ago
  > GTK's team is still fine (barely) Really? Isn't GTK where the CSD (client side decoration) is being forced onto every app, with no way to use native/normal window manager borders? It seems rather widely despised: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16241923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16241923 https://old.reddit.com/r/xfce/comments/lcj7cq/why_is_csd_bad/ https://old.reddit.com/r/xfce/comments/lcj7cq/why_is_csd_bad...
  - phkahler 5y ago
    Yeah, that goes against everything Wayland.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    That's more of a GNOME effort, if I'm being honest. It's a feature that's provided via GTK's libraries, but the whole "we're going to add CSD and you're not going to do anything about it" has been more of a GNOME sentiment[0]. [0] https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/01/26/csd-initiative/
simion314 5y ago
>Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't make them the "bad guys". I was replying on the consistency topic. some projects offer the user a consistent experience by offering both Qt/GTK support and others don't care and would rather force their branding on you.
bayindirh 5y ago
> Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't make them the "bad guys". Since the KDE 3.5.x days, it's always KDE guys who try to build corresponding GTK themes of the themes they default on the corresponding release, or build corresponding Qt themes of the GTK themes put forward as default by the GNOME guys. Moreover, there are always ways to make GNOME subsystems work well on KDE systems, and KDE guys always make sure that the standards they propose work with the GNOME without much hassle. Also, KDE guys put forward cross-DE ways to make user experience better (XDG base folder specification, for example). OTOH, GNOME people sit on their high thrones like they're the only game in town. I respect them deeply, but I can't appreciate them just because they auto-generated their JS introspection layer from C code automatically, but didn't bother to write any documentation, because you can try it all in the built-in JS console. I have a couple of more, lower level stories with them, which caused a lot of all-nighters and project postponements, but that's for another comment. Their attitude is not helpful.
OOPMan 5y ago
They may not be bad people, but their GUI framework is pretty bad.

ravenstine 5y ago

As much as I think that GNOME is a joke at this point (and has been for well over a decade), is that really such a bad thing that they focus on supporting their graphical toolkit of choice? Besides, the real solution here is for developers to switch to QT and stop using GTK. ;)

colejohnson66 5y ago
Qt, unfortunately, by nature of being C++, is much harder to link into a different language. GTK is a plain C API. So, if you’re using plain C, Rust, C#, etc, it’s a heck of a lot easier to use GTK than Qt.
- simion314 5y ago
  The thing is that GNOME project and GNOME based distros should put just a bit of effort to support Qt programs, like have the same File Picker Dialog or even have GTK2 and GTK3 use the same fucking File Picker or at least with the same fucking File Sorting. About easy of use I am sure that you are more productive with a professional toolkit like Qt and a mature language like c++ then fucking around with some broken/incomplete/buggy C# or Rust GTK bindings. Though I think you can do simple Python apps with GTK GUIs but for professional applications that are targeting crossplatform trust me Qt is the solution (I never seen a good GUI cross platform pro application , Linus Torvalds himself used Qt for his app because his Red Hat friends could not answer him on how to do some complex GUI in GTK)
  - tadfisher 5y ago
    You get the DE's file chooser if you use xdg-desktop-portal, which has a KDE backend.
    - simion314 5y ago
      This is a recent development and that was designed to support GNOME/RedHat's flatpack , we should not get tricked to believe GNOME would have done this for helping someone else then themselves(do they support this in GTK2 apps too?, I really hate having different file choser with different sorting order of files and folders)