6 ms·

The US is a republic, not a democracy. And for good reasons. Otherwise, politicians will try to one-up each other with promises of freebies. It's easy to win el

by rafale 5y ago

The US is a republic, not a democracy. And for good reasons. Otherwise, politicians will try to one-up each other with promises of freebies. It's easy to win elections when you promise free healthcare, free education, free childcare,... The average person will vote in their immediate interest and not worry about the big picture. The big picture: nothing is free.

thghtihadanacct 5y ago
I dont remember seeing the word 'free' in the posted article anywhere related to the paying for this bill. In fact, it clearly states the cost will come from taxes on the wealthy ... whom Manchin represents.
- DennisAleynikov 5y ago
  those damn wealthy... and their... running the country into the ground... darn Manchin can't get his hands out of the coffers long enough to see the people suffering outside!!!
  - thghtihadanacct 5y ago
    Indeed, Im under the impression WV is one of the most heavily subsidized by the fed.
  - klarstrup 5y ago
    curious to know where you were going with this comment
    - DennisAleynikov 5y ago
      the people in Manchins district are reliant on coal and other non democratic agenda aligned perspectives, him acting the way he does isn't as simple as him catering to the rich....
      - klarstrup 5y ago
        why are the people in Manchins district are reliant on coal
        thghtihadanacct 5y ago
        Because bills like this aren't passed to help raise them out of poverty.
- garmaine 5y ago
  West Virginia is wealthy?
  - thghtihadanacct 5y ago
    LoL, are you saying WV is the only people that pay Manchin? His top donations this cycle are from businesses that stand to gain by this measure not passing (see OpenSecrets.org, etc). Edit: This isnt to say the measure not passing is all his fault. Im way tired of all bill passing on party lines, however, its disingenuous to pretend Manchins motives are mostly for the people actually picking the coal out of the ground for him.
synergy20 5y ago
Exactly right. "Rural, low population states have far too much power in the present system. This is not sustainable" is wrong in that, pure democracy leads to pure majority rule, which causes stability issues in no time, history tells a lot of those stories.
- kergonath 5y ago
  Come on, there are plenty of healthy democracies in which all votes have the same weight, it’s trivial to demonstrate how wrong you are. “One person, one vote” might have been radical 300 years ago, but it really should not be controversial in the 21st century.
  - synergy20 5y ago
    Tax and Law and Republic are the three to hold the society in order with enough individual rights for the long run. The only way I can agree on pure majority vote is that you need to qualify for it, e.g. only those who contributed to the society(taxpayers,social works, housewives raising kids,etc) can vote(disabled can vote no matter what). Voting right should be earned.
    - kergonath 5y ago
      > Voting right should be earned. The problem you run into is that someone has to define how it should be earned. Several criteria have been tried (wealth, tax paid, military service, etc), and all of them have been found inadequate in one or several respects. Several revolutions have been fought over this. Still, assuming that a perfect criterion would exist, what would be yours?
      - ryrymcfly 5y ago
        Mine would be qualified service to society. 2 years of public service, with no option to bypass. Service being tailored for your particular skills and abilities.
Ekaros 5y ago
It is democracy, but it also federal republic. Important qualifier is the federal. There are also lot of non-federal republics.
kergonath 5y ago
> The US is a republic, not a democracy. This pops up every now and then and is complete bullshit. A republic is a system of government with a parliament and an elected head of state. Being a republic and being a democracy are completely unrelated. There are republics that are oligarchies, dictatorships, or democracies. Similarly, there are monarchies that are oligarchies, dictatorships, or democracies. You can discuss about legitimacy and the fact that the US is a federation of states instead of a government of citizens, but “it’s a republic not a democracy” is stupid. Using it as a way of justifying blatant undemocratic aspects of the way the US work is doubly so.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Republic simply means there is no monarch. Dictatorships are kinda interesting, but if they are elected, it still falls on side of republic.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    Russia and China are examples of that (republics that are also dictatorships).
    - garmaine 5y ago
      China has a President-for-life. That’s not a republic by any measure.
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        It is not a hereditary position. One could even argue that USA isn't republic as there was two people elected from same family as head of state.
      - kergonath 5y ago
        Right, China is interesting. Still, it does not have a monarch, it has a parliament that elects a president (for all intent and purposes) who is the head of state. The legitimacy of the president comes from the community, and he does not own the state or the land. Citizens are not subjects. It’s a bit blurred because of its single-party nature, but it has all of the attributes of a republic.
defaultname 5y ago
The US is a democratic republic. Canada, the UK and a number of others are parliamentary democracy. They are ALL democracies, and I'm unaware of a single country on the planet that is a pure democracy. All are representative in some way. This bizarre "not a democracy" (for the oldest ongoing democracy) is not based in reality at all, but someone read it somewhere and just mindlessly repeats it. > It's easy to win elections when you promise free healthcare, free education, free childcare,... The average person will vote in their immediate interest and not worry about the big picture In reality the "average person" votes against their own interest -- both short and long term -- at virtually every turn. I feel like I've been trolled.
- akmarinov 5y ago
  The UK is a monarchy. All power comes from the Queen, not the people, she’s the sovereign. At least on paper.
  - ryrymcfly 5y ago
    Wait till you hear about the magna Carta.... The queen has no more control over the country than a hood ornament has over the direction of a car.
    - rafale 5y ago
      Wait until you hear about the reserve powers :P
kgwxd 5y ago
> Nothing is free That's what taxes are supposed to be for. What's the different if I pay 10k a year to an insurance company or the government for my family to have affordable access to healthcare? With the current system, I'm not even getting that, my entire family has never exceeded our crazy high deductibles. We have some form of control over who gets to run our government programs, no matter how small that form of control is, it's better than the zero control we have over the practices of private companies or the terrible choices private companies make about what insurance we get to even have in the first place.
- rafale 5y ago
  There are differences. The biggest one imo is that the government is a package deal, it doesn't have a lot of granularity. Whether with private spending, you can chose/change/leave your service provider, giving the latter an incentive to perform. And giving you more options than 1. At least in theory, when the free markets operates well. Private healthcare in the US has a lot of government intervention and regulation that makes it a farce.

by rafale 5y ago

thghtihadanacct 5y ago

I dont remember seeing the word 'free' in the posted article anywhere related to the paying for this bill. In fact, it clearly states the cost will come from taxes on the wealthy ... whom Manchin represents.

DennisAleynikov 5y ago
those damn wealthy... and their... running the country into the ground... darn Manchin can't get his hands out of the coffers long enough to see the people suffering outside!!!
- thghtihadanacct 5y ago
  Indeed, Im under the impression WV is one of the most heavily subsidized by the fed.
- klarstrup 5y ago
  curious to know where you were going with this comment
  - DennisAleynikov 5y ago
    the people in Manchins district are reliant on coal and other non democratic agenda aligned perspectives, him acting the way he does isn't as simple as him catering to the rich....
    - klarstrup 5y ago
      why are the people in Manchins district are reliant on coal
      - thghtihadanacct 5y ago
        Because bills like this aren't passed to help raise them out of poverty.
garmaine 5y ago
West Virginia is wealthy?
- thghtihadanacct 5y ago
  LoL, are you saying WV is the only people that pay Manchin? His top donations this cycle are from businesses that stand to gain by this measure not passing (see OpenSecrets.org, etc). Edit: This isnt to say the measure not passing is all his fault. Im way tired of all bill passing on party lines, however, its disingenuous to pretend Manchins motives are mostly for the people actually picking the coal out of the ground for him.

synergy20 5y ago

Exactly right. "Rural, low population states have far too much power in the present system. This is not sustainable" is wrong in that, pure democracy leads to pure majority rule, which causes stability issues in no time, history tells a lot of those stories.

kergonath 5y ago
Come on, there are plenty of healthy democracies in which all votes have the same weight, it’s trivial to demonstrate how wrong you are. “One person, one vote” might have been radical 300 years ago, but it really should not be controversial in the 21st century.
- synergy20 5y ago
  Tax and Law and Republic are the three to hold the society in order with enough individual rights for the long run. The only way I can agree on pure majority vote is that you need to qualify for it, e.g. only those who contributed to the society(taxpayers,social works, housewives raising kids,etc) can vote(disabled can vote no matter what). Voting right should be earned.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    > Voting right should be earned. The problem you run into is that someone has to define how it should be earned. Several criteria have been tried (wealth, tax paid, military service, etc), and all of them have been found inadequate in one or several respects. Several revolutions have been fought over this. Still, assuming that a perfect criterion would exist, what would be yours?
    - ryrymcfly 5y ago
      Mine would be qualified service to society. 2 years of public service, with no option to bypass. Service being tailored for your particular skills and abilities.

Ekaros 5y ago

It is democracy, but it also federal republic. Important qualifier is the federal. There are also lot of non-federal republics.

kergonath 5y ago

> The US is a republic, not a democracy. This pops up every now and then and is complete bullshit. A republic is a system of government with a parliament and an elected head of state. Being a republic and being a democracy are completely unrelated. There are republics that are oligarchies, dictatorships, or democracies. Similarly, there are monarchies that are oligarchies, dictatorships, or democracies. You can discuss about legitimacy and the fact that the US is a federation of states instead of a government of citizens, but “it’s a republic not a democracy” is stupid. Using it as a way of justifying blatant undemocratic aspects of the way the US work is doubly so.

Ekaros 5y ago
Republic simply means there is no monarch. Dictatorships are kinda interesting, but if they are elected, it still falls on side of republic.
- kergonath 5y ago
  Russia and China are examples of that (republics that are also dictatorships).
  - garmaine 5y ago
    China has a President-for-life. That’s not a republic by any measure.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      It is not a hereditary position. One could even argue that USA isn't republic as there was two people elected from same family as head of state.
    - kergonath 5y ago
      Right, China is interesting. Still, it does not have a monarch, it has a parliament that elects a president (for all intent and purposes) who is the head of state. The legitimacy of the president comes from the community, and he does not own the state or the land. Citizens are not subjects. It’s a bit blurred because of its single-party nature, but it has all of the attributes of a republic.

defaultname 5y ago

The US is a democratic republic. Canada, the UK and a number of others are parliamentary democracy. They are ALL democracies, and I'm unaware of a single country on the planet that is a pure democracy. All are representative in some way. This bizarre "not a democracy" (for the oldest ongoing democracy) is not based in reality at all, but someone read it somewhere and just mindlessly repeats it. > It's easy to win elections when you promise free healthcare, free education, free childcare,... The average person will vote in their immediate interest and not worry about the big picture In reality the "average person" votes against their own interest -- both short and long term -- at virtually every turn. I feel like I've been trolled.

akmarinov 5y ago
The UK is a monarchy. All power comes from the Queen, not the people, she’s the sovereign. At least on paper.
- ryrymcfly 5y ago
  Wait till you hear about the magna Carta.... The queen has no more control over the country than a hood ornament has over the direction of a car.
  - rafale 5y ago
    Wait until you hear about the reserve powers :P

kgwxd 5y ago

> Nothing is free That's what taxes are supposed to be for. What's the different if I pay 10k a year to an insurance company or the government for my family to have affordable access to healthcare? With the current system, I'm not even getting that, my entire family has never exceeded our crazy high deductibles. We have some form of control over who gets to run our government programs, no matter how small that form of control is, it's better than the zero control we have over the practices of private companies or the terrible choices private companies make about what insurance we get to even have in the first place.

rafale 5y ago
There are differences. The biggest one imo is that the government is a package deal, it doesn't have a lot of granularity. Whether with private spending, you can chose/change/leave your service provider, giving the latter an incentive to perform. And giving you more options than 1. At least in theory, when the free markets operates well. Private healthcare in the US has a lot of government intervention and regulation that makes it a farce.