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+1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also. A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China

+1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also. A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China, but really I am just reacting to how wonderful the people there were when my wife and I travelled in China, and I also really respect their AI tech, their tech in general, and how so many people have moved out of poverty. It is just their current government that I don’t like.

imiric 5y ago
Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power. The people of China choose to allow CCP to run their country. If they were so different ideologically the CCP would no longer exist. Countries with orders of magnitude less people struggle to remain united. The fact 1.4 billion people can be represented by the same political party speaks to the strong ideological ties that are shared by most Chinese people. I would argue that those ideologies were implanted by decades of brainwashing and totalitarianism, but how it was achieved doesn't change that fact. So, yes, your experience and likely many others' is with good people. Countries are not exclusively bad or good. We can recognize those good traits that China has as a nation. But it would be wrong to also not criticize the bad aspects, and sweep them under the rug as the CCP constantly tries to do. The rampant economic and moral corruption, overfishing of world's waters and general disregard for animal life and nature, disregard for human life, widespread racism and xenophobia, isolationism, etc. These are not only governmental issues, but part of the modern Chinese culture that taints whatever good aspects we can celebrate. Undoubtedly comparisons to the US will be made, but at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly, without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments. The US government will persecute whistleblowers for airing its dirty laundry, but we've known that for decades. I fear a world where the dominant superpower has such a culture and is closed to criticism—not only because of its oppressive government, but because of its people.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly, Yup. > without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments. Eh... No, usually not.
- mark_l_watson 5y ago
  Seriously, I wish I had your optimism that governments reflect the people. I really do. In my worldview, and I am likely at least partially wrong, I think that almost all governments are totally controlled by corporate and elite interests - same as news media. I do try to not get too upset by this, and I just try to be a decent person. Really, I am just an average person so what else can I do?
  - imiric 5y ago
    Even if I'm wrong and governments don't reflect the people, my main point is that there are many issues with Chinese culture itself that should be criticized. This common phrase of "I don't like the Chinese government but I like the people" as a way to not appear xenophobic is what I'm arguing against. We definitely should be able to criticize wrong cultural behavior, and China has plenty of that.
- adrian_b 5y ago
  There is some truth in what you say that even in a dictatorship the government needs the support of some people to remain in power. The problem is that it is enough for only a small minority to support the government for it to keep the power forever. I have been born in a country occupied by communists and there for many decades an overwhelming majority of the people wished that the current government would be deleted, but nobody could do anything. It is hard to estimate how many people supported the government, but it is very unlikely that they were more than 5% of the total population. Nevertheless, that was enough to make impossible to organize any kind of opposition against the government because any attempt would be reported by informers and the initiators would be eliminated before being able to do any action. Maybe in China there is a majority that supports the CCP, but that certainly is not a rule in dictatorships.
- 5y ago

imiric 5y ago

Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power. The people of China choose to allow CCP to run their country. If they were so different ideologically the CCP would no longer exist. Countries with orders of magnitude less people struggle to remain united. The fact 1.4 billion people can be represented by the same political party speaks to the strong ideological ties that are shared by most Chinese people. I would argue that those ideologies were implanted by decades of brainwashing and totalitarianism, but how it was achieved doesn't change that fact. So, yes, your experience and likely many others' is with good people. Countries are not exclusively bad or good. We can recognize those good traits that China has as a nation. But it would be wrong to also not criticize the bad aspects, and sweep them under the rug as the CCP constantly tries to do. The rampant economic and moral corruption, overfishing of world's waters and general disregard for animal life and nature, disregard for human life, widespread racism and xenophobia, isolationism, etc. These are not only governmental issues, but part of the modern Chinese culture that taints whatever good aspects we can celebrate. Undoubtedly comparisons to the US will be made, but at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly, without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments. The US government will persecute whistleblowers for airing its dirty laundry, but we've known that for decades. I fear a world where the dominant superpower has such a culture and is closed to criticism—not only because of its oppressive government, but because of its people.

CRConrad 5y ago
> at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly, Yup. > without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments. Eh... No, usually not.
mark_l_watson 5y ago
Seriously, I wish I had your optimism that governments reflect the people. I really do. In my worldview, and I am likely at least partially wrong, I think that almost all governments are totally controlled by corporate and elite interests - same as news media. I do try to not get too upset by this, and I just try to be a decent person. Really, I am just an average person so what else can I do?
- imiric 5y ago
  Even if I'm wrong and governments don't reflect the people, my main point is that there are many issues with Chinese culture itself that should be criticized. This common phrase of "I don't like the Chinese government but I like the people" as a way to not appear xenophobic is what I'm arguing against. We definitely should be able to criticize wrong cultural behavior, and China has plenty of that.
adrian_b 5y ago
There is some truth in what you say that even in a dictatorship the government needs the support of some people to remain in power. The problem is that it is enough for only a small minority to support the government for it to keep the power forever. I have been born in a country occupied by communists and there for many decades an overwhelming majority of the people wished that the current government would be deleted, but nobody could do anything. It is hard to estimate how many people supported the government, but it is very unlikely that they were more than 5% of the total population. Nevertheless, that was enough to make impossible to organize any kind of opposition against the government because any attempt would be reported by informers and the initiators would be eliminated before being able to do any action. Maybe in China there is a majority that supports the CCP, but that certainly is not a rule in dictatorships.
5y ago