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> In what way is this related to "other people shouldn't be inconvenienced to protect you from the choices you have made"? Who is inconvenienced? And should I

> In what way is this related to "other people shouldn't be inconvenienced to protect you from the choices you have made"? Who is inconvenienced? And should I feel 'inconvenienced' by those going to hospital because of vaccine adverse events? For instance, just for Pfizer in the EU, there are 640K events reported as of now [1], with ~70K of those for Blood & lymphatic system or cardiac disorders. Now these may not all be specific to Covid and not all hospitalisations, but there's certainly some 'inconvenience' to others here, no? Or is there some lower limit of 'inconvenience?' You might also observe that a large number of adverse events are occurring in the 18-64 group, one that is of much lower risk of covid hospitalisation/death in the first place. But wouldn't want to inconvenience you with lockdowns now would we! How frustrating! Better let you out so you can go give some unvaccinated people covid instead hmm? Sorry for the snark but what a selfish attitude. [1] https://dap.ema.europa.eu/analytics/saw.dll?PortalPages https://dap.ema.europa.eu/analytics/saw.dll?PortalPages

stavros 5y ago
> Who is inconvenienced? Vaccinated people. I feel like you aren't following the debate. > And should I feel 'inconvenienced' by those going to hospital because of vaccine adverse events? No, why would you? > Wouldn't want to inconvenience you with lockdowns now would we! How frustrating! Better let you out so you can go give some unvaccinated people covid instead hmm? Sorry for the snark but what a selfish attitude. Yeah if you think "you better stay inside so I don't get COVID because I don't want to get vaccinated" is a reasonable stance, this won't go anywhere. I even completely fail to fathom how "you should limit your own liberty to protect me from my choices" is remotely acceptable, let alone thinking that somebody not doing that is selfish. You can either get vaccinated and go out, or not get vaccinated and stay in. How is it at all reasonable to tell me what to do because you don't want to get vaccinated? You're basically saying "everybody else needs to stop driving because I like walking in the street instead of the sidewalk, how selfish of you to still want to drive!".
- headsoup 5y ago
  > Vaccinated people. I feel like you aren't following the debate. So what exactly is this inconvenience, caused specifically by unvaccinated people and not government policy? > No, why would you? Depends on your answer for the above. > Yeah if you think "you better stay inside so I don't get COVID because I don't want to get vaccinated" is a reasonable stance, this won't go anywhere. So who exactly are you protecting with vaccination then? Other vaxxed people who are also protected? And as I mentioned in another comment, why pretend to understand the motives of the unvaccinated to make them the 'enemy?' > I even completely fail to fathom how "you should limit your own liberty to protect me from my choices" is remotely acceptable But it's ok to limit the liberties of the unvaxed because 'risk?' Everyone has rights or no one has rights. This is fundamental. Are you ok to be called unvaccinated if they decide boosters should be monthly even if a newer variant is evading those vaccines again? > You can either get vaccinated and go out, or not get vaccinated and stay in. How is it at all reasonable to tell me what to do because you don't want to get vaccinated? You're basically saying "everybody else needs to stop driving because I like walking in the street instead of the sidewalk, how selfish of you to still want to drive!". But being vaccinated doesn't stop it spreading while you're out, which highlights the selfish motives for getting it. You don't care about not making people sick, you care that your freedoms aren't restricted. There's a lot of vaccinated people in hospital still, are they an inconvenience?
  - stavros 5y ago
    > So what exactly is this inconvenience You said this: > Why do we not still care for the unvaccinated regardless of their reasons or situations for being so? The inconvenience si "caring for the unvaccinated", at least that's how I interpreted your comment. If you meant something different please let me know. > caused specifically by unvaccinated people and not government policy? Government policy to protect unvaccinated people. > So who exactly are you protecting with vaccination then? Myself, obviously. > why pretend to understand the motives of the unvaccinated to make them the 'enemy?' I didn't make them "the enemy". They can do whatever I want, I just don't want any limitation on myself to protect them from their choices. > But it's ok to limit the liberties of the unvaxed because 'risk?' Everyone has rights or no one has rights. "But it's ok to limit the liberties of the drunk because 'risk?' Everyone can drive or no one can drive." > But being vaccinated doesn't stop it spreading while you're out This argument would make sense if curtailing the spread was the ultimate goal, but it's not. Preventing hospitalizations/deaths is the ultimate goal. If I go into a room with vaccinated people and give them all COVID but nobody is hospitalized, then that's fine. I don't think this is so hard to understand. > You don't care about not making people sick, you care that your freedoms aren't restricted. Everything is a tradeoff. If you're vaccinated, you're less of a risk than if you aren't. At some point, life has to go on. Or should we have been in perpetual lockdown for centuries so people didn't die of the flu as well?
fsh 5y ago
Please stop abusing the EMA data to spread misinformation. The website very clearly states: The information on this website relates to suspected side effects, i.e. medical events that have been observed following the administration of the COVID-19 vaccines, but which are not necessarily related to or caused by the vaccine. Without knowledge of the expected background rate of such events, the data is impossible to interpret. In no way does it show that the vaccines are unsafe.
- headsoup 5y ago
  I noted that my reply, but sure, let's not take the cautious approach with vaccines and yet take the extremely cautious approach with covid (dying within 30 days of catching covid is counted as covid death in many countries). Covids deaths are not acceptable, but deaths in younger demographics are acceptable because they're less?

stavros 5y ago

> Who is inconvenienced? Vaccinated people. I feel like you aren't following the debate. > And should I feel 'inconvenienced' by those going to hospital because of vaccine adverse events? No, why would you? > Wouldn't want to inconvenience you with lockdowns now would we! How frustrating! Better let you out so you can go give some unvaccinated people covid instead hmm? Sorry for the snark but what a selfish attitude. Yeah if you think "you better stay inside so I don't get COVID because I don't want to get vaccinated" is a reasonable stance, this won't go anywhere. I even completely fail to fathom how "you should limit your own liberty to protect me from my choices" is remotely acceptable, let alone thinking that somebody not doing that is selfish. You can either get vaccinated and go out, or not get vaccinated and stay in. How is it at all reasonable to tell me what to do because you don't want to get vaccinated? You're basically saying "everybody else needs to stop driving because I like walking in the street instead of the sidewalk, how selfish of you to still want to drive!".

headsoup 5y ago
> Vaccinated people. I feel like you aren't following the debate. So what exactly is this inconvenience, caused specifically by unvaccinated people and not government policy? > No, why would you? Depends on your answer for the above. > Yeah if you think "you better stay inside so I don't get COVID because I don't want to get vaccinated" is a reasonable stance, this won't go anywhere. So who exactly are you protecting with vaccination then? Other vaxxed people who are also protected? And as I mentioned in another comment, why pretend to understand the motives of the unvaccinated to make them the 'enemy?' > I even completely fail to fathom how "you should limit your own liberty to protect me from my choices" is remotely acceptable But it's ok to limit the liberties of the unvaxed because 'risk?' Everyone has rights or no one has rights. This is fundamental. Are you ok to be called unvaccinated if they decide boosters should be monthly even if a newer variant is evading those vaccines again? > You can either get vaccinated and go out, or not get vaccinated and stay in. How is it at all reasonable to tell me what to do because you don't want to get vaccinated? You're basically saying "everybody else needs to stop driving because I like walking in the street instead of the sidewalk, how selfish of you to still want to drive!". But being vaccinated doesn't stop it spreading while you're out, which highlights the selfish motives for getting it. You don't care about not making people sick, you care that your freedoms aren't restricted. There's a lot of vaccinated people in hospital still, are they an inconvenience?
- stavros 5y ago
  > So what exactly is this inconvenience You said this: > Why do we not still care for the unvaccinated regardless of their reasons or situations for being so? The inconvenience si "caring for the unvaccinated", at least that's how I interpreted your comment. If you meant something different please let me know. > caused specifically by unvaccinated people and not government policy? Government policy to protect unvaccinated people. > So who exactly are you protecting with vaccination then? Myself, obviously. > why pretend to understand the motives of the unvaccinated to make them the 'enemy?' I didn't make them "the enemy". They can do whatever I want, I just don't want any limitation on myself to protect them from their choices. > But it's ok to limit the liberties of the unvaxed because 'risk?' Everyone has rights or no one has rights. "But it's ok to limit the liberties of the drunk because 'risk?' Everyone can drive or no one can drive." > But being vaccinated doesn't stop it spreading while you're out This argument would make sense if curtailing the spread was the ultimate goal, but it's not. Preventing hospitalizations/deaths is the ultimate goal. If I go into a room with vaccinated people and give them all COVID but nobody is hospitalized, then that's fine. I don't think this is so hard to understand. > You don't care about not making people sick, you care that your freedoms aren't restricted. Everything is a tradeoff. If you're vaccinated, you're less of a risk than if you aren't. At some point, life has to go on. Or should we have been in perpetual lockdown for centuries so people didn't die of the flu as well?

fsh 5y ago

Please stop abusing the EMA data to spread misinformation. The website very clearly states: The information on this website relates to suspected side effects, i.e. medical events that have been observed following the administration of the COVID-19 vaccines, but which are not necessarily related to or caused by the vaccine. Without knowledge of the expected background rate of such events, the data is impossible to interpret. In no way does it show that the vaccines are unsafe.

headsoup 5y ago
I noted that my reply, but sure, let's not take the cautious approach with vaccines and yet take the extremely cautious approach with covid (dying within 30 days of catching covid is counted as covid death in many countries). Covids deaths are not acceptable, but deaths in younger demographics are acceptable because they're less?