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Europeans were quick to scorn Mr Trump’s policies but the reality is that China has been unfair in its trade practices. Also, losing liberty in Hong Kong was sa

Europeans were quick to scorn Mr Trump’s policies but the reality is that China has been unfair in its trade practices. Also, losing liberty in Hong Kong was sad but it will be much worse if free Taiwan is crushed by CCP ambition. The West should have alot of introspection about which battles are the right ones to choose. How will history judge the current leadership of the West if they abandon Taiwan?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yardie 5y ago
If you are the referring to Trump cancelling TPP it was a dumb move that only emboldened China. The TPP was supposed to be the US and 12 smaller Asian nations vs China. TPP was created because of China's unfair trade practices and Trump dismantled it. No one needs to rewrite his history. The guy was a complete fucking disaster.
- tata71 5y ago
  Did you miss the draconian international copyright regime that it would have put into place etc?
  - unmole 5y ago
    Right, that was why the US refused to join the TPP...
  - yardie 5y ago
    I agree, it shouldn't have been in there. But that is only tangential to the reason why Trump pulled the US out of it. He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals.
    - rendall 5y ago
      > He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals. Would you mind expanding on this? I could only find articles describing a bank account opened in China, that indicate only a little less than $500k business per year. What do you know?
      - ahiknsr 5y ago
        Ivanka Trump won China trademarks days before her father's reversal on ZTE https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/28/ivanka-trump-won-china-trademarks-donald-trump-zte-reversal https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/28/ivanka-trump...
- philliphaydon 5y ago
  I don’t think I ever heard anything positive about the TPP. NZ hated it because it was being pushed through the government and no one was allowed to read it. When questioned if we could change the Terms or cancel in the future if it turned out bad for us we could not get an answer. No one in nz wanted the TPP. It’s the only good thing trump did IMO. As a kiwi.
tata71 5y ago
> How will history judge the current leadership of the West if they abandon Taiwan? How does that affect how well their investments do? Maybe I'm not following.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ReptileMan 5y ago
Well the Chinese historians will praise the West leadership for the wisdom and restrain, so will the Western. The Japanese and Korean will be harsh, the rest of the world will file it under meh ...
zibzab 5y ago
The reason EU considered Trumps actions dangerous is because (1) he went after symbolic stuff and (2) Europeans companies got caught in the crossfire and it severely damaged the EU economy in steal and aluminium sectors. See also the ZTE and DanceByte sanctions. WTF was that about?
- sebow 5y ago
  > See also the ZTE and DanceByte sanctions. WTF was that about? Legitimate reasons of concern.Either estonians or lithuanians released a very detailed report (from their ministry of defence if i recall correctly) showing how chinese manufacturers installed backdoors(these are not mere malware viruses, because that would assume infection post-purchase) on their phones which actively surpress any messaging/information exchange about TW,HK, or touchy subjects that the Chinese governments wants to shut down.
pas 5y ago
> Europeans were quick to scorn Trump’s policies yes > China has been unfair in its trade practices yes but these doesn't have much to do with each other. It was already known before Trump that the lack of trade/investment reciprocity with China is big fucking problem. (2016 Brookings report, and Brookings is not a conservative think tank. Quite the opposite - according to conservative pundits.) Of course this concern was mostly completely ignored, because the money was good. (The economy was booming, who cares if the CCP is a narcissist control freak. Human rights violations are nothing new, it's just Tibet again.) https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/hvmilner/files/reciprocity_and_public_opposition_to_foreign_direct_investment.pdf https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/hvmilner/f...
- Maursault 5y ago
  > who cares if the CCP is a narcissist control freak. My first impression is that CCP and Taiwan remind me of the archetype of the unwanted suitor that never gets the message and keeps on pursuing a disinterested woman. But I think your framing CCP in psychological terms is just as if not more apt. I'm just pasting a list of symptoms of narcissism. Not all apply, but strikingly, enough symptoms do apply to CCP for a positive diagnosis: Grandiosity Exaggerated sense of self-importance Feeling superior to others and that one deserves special treatment Feelings are often accompanied by fantasies of unlimited success, brilliance, power, beauty, or love which more often than not cover for hidden anxiety Excessive need for admiration Must be the center of attention Often monopolize conversations Easily offended, slighted, mistreated, depleted, and enraged when ignored Engages in blaming Long-held grudges Superficial and exploitative relationships Relationships are based on surface attributes and not the unique qualities of others Others are only valued only to the extent they are viewed as beneficial Lack of empathy Severely limited or totally lacking ability to care about the emotional needs or experiences of others, even loved ones Engages in cruelty Identity disturbance Sense of self is highly superficial, extremely rigid, and often fragile Self-stability depends on maintaining the view that one is exceptional Grandiose sense of self is easily threatened Patients retreat from or deny realities that challenge grandiosity Difficulty with attachment and dependency Relies on feedback from the environment Relationships only exist to shore up positive self-image Interactions are superficial Intimacy is avoided Chronic feelings of emptiness and boredom When attention and praise are not available, patients feel empty, bored, depressed, or restless Vulnerability to life transitions Difficulty maintaining reality-based personal and professional goals over time Compromises required by school, jobs, and relationships may feel unbearable Young adults may have a “failure to launch”
sebow 5y ago
That's a big of a strawman.I think more correctly would be to say western europeans(and even then not entire accurate, many brits and germans for example like trump,especially when he defended HK) were more critical of trump (if not outright TDS oftenly) than the rest of the continent. Especially eastern europeans(not the media) weren't critical at all of Trump,for key reasons: he was pro-nato, he promoted 3SI, pushed back against Russia(contrarian to what MSM said).The very important distinction and the reason you might have that impression is because the media is de facto the same on the entire continent and very much US-aligned.The EE media outlets literally copy-paste western talking points, you rarely see opposite voices, obviously with the exceptions of outlets that are either local or not the biggest, and why not often owned politicians with opposing voices.. With very few exceptions, the entire EE dislikes to a degree(to say hate is strong here) China,mostly on an ideological context.The more important question is to analyze China's (forceful) involvement into EE and specially Balkans.You see how hard they try to push development projects in Serbia,Bulgaria, etc and you really get surprised.They try to fund everything they can(because they have money) in order to expand their sphere of influence.However they have less success when it comes to critical infrastructure with nato members.Also on the Taiwan/HK issue, i don't think many people are pro-china at all.
Ekaros 5y ago
How has history judged the Western leadership after WW2 for abandoning Eastern Europe to Soviets? I'm amazed we aren't telling the truth and west was only slightly above Germans in being evil. They had option to be good, but instead because they were unquestionably pure evil they sacrificed huge number of people to Soviets...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

yardie 5y ago

If you are the referring to Trump cancelling TPP it was a dumb move that only emboldened China. The TPP was supposed to be the US and 12 smaller Asian nations vs China. TPP was created because of China's unfair trade practices and Trump dismantled it. No one needs to rewrite his history. The guy was a complete fucking disaster.

tata71 5y ago
Did you miss the draconian international copyright regime that it would have put into place etc?
- unmole 5y ago
  Right, that was why the US refused to join the TPP...
- yardie 5y ago
  I agree, it shouldn't have been in there. But that is only tangential to the reason why Trump pulled the US out of it. He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals.
  - rendall 5y ago
    > He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals. Would you mind expanding on this? I could only find articles describing a bank account opened in China, that indicate only a little less than $500k business per year. What do you know?
    - ahiknsr 5y ago
      Ivanka Trump won China trademarks days before her father's reversal on ZTE https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/28/ivanka-trump-won-china-trademarks-donald-trump-zte-reversal https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/28/ivanka-trump...
philliphaydon 5y ago
I don’t think I ever heard anything positive about the TPP. NZ hated it because it was being pushed through the government and no one was allowed to read it. When questioned if we could change the Terms or cancel in the future if it turned out bad for us we could not get an answer. No one in nz wanted the TPP. It’s the only good thing trump did IMO. As a kiwi.

tata71 5y ago

> How will history judge the current leadership of the West if they abandon Taiwan? How does that affect how well their investments do? Maybe I'm not following.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ReptileMan 5y ago

Well the Chinese historians will praise the West leadership for the wisdom and restrain, so will the Western. The Japanese and Korean will be harsh, the rest of the world will file it under meh ...

zibzab 5y ago

The reason EU considered Trumps actions dangerous is because (1) he went after symbolic stuff and (2) Europeans companies got caught in the crossfire and it severely damaged the EU economy in steal and aluminium sectors. See also the ZTE and DanceByte sanctions. WTF was that about?

sebow 5y ago
> See also the ZTE and DanceByte sanctions. WTF was that about? Legitimate reasons of concern.Either estonians or lithuanians released a very detailed report (from their ministry of defence if i recall correctly) showing how chinese manufacturers installed backdoors(these are not mere malware viruses, because that would assume infection post-purchase) on their phones which actively surpress any messaging/information exchange about TW,HK, or touchy subjects that the Chinese governments wants to shut down.

pas 5y ago

> Europeans were quick to scorn Trump’s policies yes > China has been unfair in its trade practices yes but these doesn't have much to do with each other. It was already known before Trump that the lack of trade/investment reciprocity with China is big fucking problem. (2016 Brookings report, and Brookings is not a conservative think tank. Quite the opposite - according to conservative pundits.) Of course this concern was mostly completely ignored, because the money was good. (The economy was booming, who cares if the CCP is a narcissist control freak. Human rights violations are nothing new, it's just Tibet again.) https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/hvmilner/files/reciprocity_and_public_opposition_to_foreign_direct_investment.pdf https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/hvmilner/f...

Maursault 5y ago
> who cares if the CCP is a narcissist control freak. My first impression is that CCP and Taiwan remind me of the archetype of the unwanted suitor that never gets the message and keeps on pursuing a disinterested woman. But I think your framing CCP in psychological terms is just as if not more apt. I'm just pasting a list of symptoms of narcissism. Not all apply, but strikingly, enough symptoms do apply to CCP for a positive diagnosis: Grandiosity Exaggerated sense of self-importance Feeling superior to others and that one deserves special treatment Feelings are often accompanied by fantasies of unlimited success, brilliance, power, beauty, or love which more often than not cover for hidden anxiety Excessive need for admiration Must be the center of attention Often monopolize conversations Easily offended, slighted, mistreated, depleted, and enraged when ignored Engages in blaming Long-held grudges Superficial and exploitative relationships Relationships are based on surface attributes and not the unique qualities of others Others are only valued only to the extent they are viewed as beneficial Lack of empathy Severely limited or totally lacking ability to care about the emotional needs or experiences of others, even loved ones Engages in cruelty Identity disturbance Sense of self is highly superficial, extremely rigid, and often fragile Self-stability depends on maintaining the view that one is exceptional Grandiose sense of self is easily threatened Patients retreat from or deny realities that challenge grandiosity Difficulty with attachment and dependency Relies on feedback from the environment Relationships only exist to shore up positive self-image Interactions are superficial Intimacy is avoided Chronic feelings of emptiness and boredom When attention and praise are not available, patients feel empty, bored, depressed, or restless Vulnerability to life transitions Difficulty maintaining reality-based personal and professional goals over time Compromises required by school, jobs, and relationships may feel unbearable Young adults may have a “failure to launch”

sebow 5y ago

That's a big of a strawman.I think more correctly would be to say western europeans(and even then not entire accurate, many brits and germans for example like trump,especially when he defended HK) were more critical of trump (if not outright TDS oftenly) than the rest of the continent. Especially eastern europeans(not the media) weren't critical at all of Trump,for key reasons: he was pro-nato, he promoted 3SI, pushed back against Russia(contrarian to what MSM said).The very important distinction and the reason you might have that impression is because the media is de facto the same on the entire continent and very much US-aligned.The EE media outlets literally copy-paste western talking points, you rarely see opposite voices, obviously with the exceptions of outlets that are either local or not the biggest, and why not often owned politicians with opposing voices.. With very few exceptions, the entire EE dislikes to a degree(to say hate is strong here) China,mostly on an ideological context.The more important question is to analyze China's (forceful) involvement into EE and specially Balkans.You see how hard they try to push development projects in Serbia,Bulgaria, etc and you really get surprised.They try to fund everything they can(because they have money) in order to expand their sphere of influence.However they have less success when it comes to critical infrastructure with nato members.Also on the Taiwan/HK issue, i don't think many people are pro-china at all.

Ekaros 5y ago

How has history judged the Western leadership after WW2 for abandoning Eastern Europe to Soviets? I'm amazed we aren't telling the truth and west was only slightly above Germans in being evil. They had option to be good, but instead because they were unquestionably pure evil they sacrificed huge number of people to Soviets...