5 ms·

What resources are there for learning about how to read die shots? I'm surprised that one is able to glean so much information from it.

baybal2 5y ago
I'm afraid, none. It takes one to make chip, to read one later
- xattt 5y ago
  What are some top schools for getting into chip manufacturing? Is this the right way at looking about getting into the field?
  - baybal2 5y ago
    I'm afraid none in the West. Speaking, and writing Taiwanese Chinese is something really needed to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication. An average US college will tell you about VLSI, logic, teach you Cadence, and designing something on the level of 8051, and process engineering enough to work on something from 350-180nm era with aluminium interconnect. The problem is this is hardly enough to make you employable. And without employment in few serious semi companies left standing today, you will never see modern chip manufacturing. Semi industry has really high entry barriers, and it has really poor remuneration. The industry largely coasting on greying cadres from eighties-nineties in the West, and very cheap PhDs in Asia.
    - trevyn 5y ago
      I mean, what do you mean by “chip manufacturing”? I’m sure there are plenty of people designing chips at Intel/AMD/Nvidia/Apple/etc. that are good at reading die shots, so the real question might be, what career path will get you to work closely with these people and learn from them. Unless you actually mean working at a fab? Which strikes me as more process engineering than typical HN interests.
      - baybal2 5y ago
        An average semi engineering course in US/Canada will teach you a bit of everything, including physical device manufacturing. India is much more VLSI, and applied skills heavy (Cadence,) thus they dominate there. None of US multinationals will hire a fresh "average" US semi engineering graduate. Maybe MIT + 1 more top schools, but otherwise fresh grads have no chances on the job market against already experienced people coming from Asia to do their PhDs in US.
        trevyn 5y ago
        Right! My point is that they will hire fresh software engineers/other disciplines, and then with some networking and being on an adjacent team, you get access to informal learning opportunities and internal transfer opportunities, so that over the longer arc of your career you can get into whatever field you want.
      - xattt 5y ago
        I did mean chip design in my question. I‘ll (partly) admit to being a helicopter parent, so I am just curious about various career paths for a kid who shows interest in electronics, and what one particular career path (i.e. chip design) entails these days. I’m also very aware the epicentres of “top schools” will likely shift in the next 15-20 years, that kids’ interests and talents are labile, and that true self-determination is the key to a successful and happy life.
        baybal2 5y ago
        I am conflicted on this myself. Even most basic coding keeps being more profitable than EE. I went to live, and make money in the mainland China for a few years. It was a hard bargain with the conscience. I simply cannot fathom how the industry can be done in the West now, and the labour price has nothing to do with that for the reason it's higher in China for actual, non-software engineering.
        trevyn 5y ago
        Got it. Somewhat non-intuitively from the outside, hardware is far less glamorous and lucrative than software. If you really like hardware, then software that drives hardware is the place to be — you still get to play with and learn about the hardware, but you’re not in the mines, as it were. And — big one — your skills largely transfer. At any rate, if it’s not common knowledge these days, get the kid a cheap second-hand bench-top oscilloscope. As long as the basic functions work, it doesn’t matter if it’s from the 1980s. But that thing is your eyes. And the knobs are fun.
    - hulitu 5y ago
      > I'm afraid none in the West. Speaking, and writing Taiwanese Chinese is something really needed to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication. You should take a look at http://opencircuitdesign.com/ http://opencircuitdesign.com/ You don't need "to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication". You need to search for a VLSI design class.
      - baybal2 5y ago
        A VLSI class, even from an average university will contribute very little to your employability. As I said, Big Semi barely if ever employs entry level professionals. And besides Big Semi, there is really very few companies left. Even startups <$1m are full of seasoned professionals coming from abroad, seeking PhDs in US universities. I think it's more characteristic for semiconductor startups to hire much more senior engineers than the industry average to convince their investors, not the other way around.
    - kken 5y ago
      Nah, sorry that is just not true. Try this one for the US: https://sunypoly.edu/research/albany-nanotech-complex.html https://sunypoly.edu/research/albany-nanotech-complex.html Or this one for Europe: https://www.imec-int.com/en https://www.imec-int.com/en Both world-leading semiconductor technology research institutes (coincidentally both got the first EUV-tools) with plenty of students.
      - baybal2 5y ago
        I know IMEC as I was thinking going there at some point. Both IMEC, and SUNY are heavily graduate research oriented. There are some undergrad opportunities there, but one's chances to get there are probably less than getting into MIT. The "death valley" in between graduation, first employment, and a first real substantial job in semi industry is super-duper real, and acute problem. It's a problem in Asia, and 10x of than in US.
        kken 5y ago
        I don't know, just apply? Obviously it is important to get hands on experience even as an undergrad. Ideally you can do that at your university, otherwise there are plenty of opportunities for internships. At least in Europe I had absolutely no problem finding one. It can't hurt to also look for second tier companies.
        baybal2 5y ago
        I largely quit trying to get into semi 10 years ago because I was was able to get better salary, and quicker just by pumping wordpress websites. And not like 10%-20% bigger, but few times as much. My first full time job in line of "make us a WP website" was CAD $65k. An intern stipend at a semi lab was $16k cash a year, with a very competitive recruitment like "show us you was in top 10% of your group"
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
tyingq 5y ago
The author of the tweet (Ken Shirriff) is particularly good at explaining things. A couple of his posts showing that: http://www.righto.com/2018/06/silicon-die-analysis-op-amp-with.html http://www.righto.com/2018/06/silicon-die-analysis-op-amp-wi... http://www.righto.com/2016/02/555-timer-teardown-inside-worlds-most.html http://www.righto.com/2016/02/555-timer-teardown-inside-worl...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kens 5y ago
I focus on 1970s and 1980s chips, which are simple enough to understand. For that generation, Mead and Conway's Introduction to VLSI Systems is a good place to start. https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/VLSIText/PP-V2/V2.pdf https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/VLSIText/PP-V2/... Old books on chip design are also useful, and can usually be obtained for cheap. Also see The Layman's Guide to IC Reverse Engineering: http://siliconzoo.org/tutorial.html http://siliconzoo.org/tutorial.html

baybal2 5y ago

I'm afraid, none. It takes one to make chip, to read one later

xattt 5y ago
What are some top schools for getting into chip manufacturing? Is this the right way at looking about getting into the field?
- baybal2 5y ago
  I'm afraid none in the West. Speaking, and writing Taiwanese Chinese is something really needed to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication. An average US college will tell you about VLSI, logic, teach you Cadence, and designing something on the level of 8051, and process engineering enough to work on something from 350-180nm era with aluminium interconnect. The problem is this is hardly enough to make you employable. And without employment in few serious semi companies left standing today, you will never see modern chip manufacturing. Semi industry has really high entry barriers, and it has really poor remuneration. The industry largely coasting on greying cadres from eighties-nineties in the West, and very cheap PhDs in Asia.
  - trevyn 5y ago
    I mean, what do you mean by “chip manufacturing”? I’m sure there are plenty of people designing chips at Intel/AMD/Nvidia/Apple/etc. that are good at reading die shots, so the real question might be, what career path will get you to work closely with these people and learn from them. Unless you actually mean working at a fab? Which strikes me as more process engineering than typical HN interests.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      An average semi engineering course in US/Canada will teach you a bit of everything, including physical device manufacturing. India is much more VLSI, and applied skills heavy (Cadence,) thus they dominate there. None of US multinationals will hire a fresh "average" US semi engineering graduate. Maybe MIT + 1 more top schools, but otherwise fresh grads have no chances on the job market against already experienced people coming from Asia to do their PhDs in US.
      - trevyn 5y ago
        Right! My point is that they will hire fresh software engineers/other disciplines, and then with some networking and being on an adjacent team, you get access to informal learning opportunities and internal transfer opportunities, so that over the longer arc of your career you can get into whatever field you want.
    - xattt 5y ago
      I did mean chip design in my question. I‘ll (partly) admit to being a helicopter parent, so I am just curious about various career paths for a kid who shows interest in electronics, and what one particular career path (i.e. chip design) entails these days. I’m also very aware the epicentres of “top schools” will likely shift in the next 15-20 years, that kids’ interests and talents are labile, and that true self-determination is the key to a successful and happy life.
      - baybal2 5y ago
        I am conflicted on this myself. Even most basic coding keeps being more profitable than EE. I went to live, and make money in the mainland China for a few years. It was a hard bargain with the conscience. I simply cannot fathom how the industry can be done in the West now, and the labour price has nothing to do with that for the reason it's higher in China for actual, non-software engineering.
      - trevyn 5y ago
        Got it. Somewhat non-intuitively from the outside, hardware is far less glamorous and lucrative than software. If you really like hardware, then software that drives hardware is the place to be — you still get to play with and learn about the hardware, but you’re not in the mines, as it were. And — big one — your skills largely transfer. At any rate, if it’s not common knowledge these days, get the kid a cheap second-hand bench-top oscilloscope. As long as the basic functions work, it doesn’t matter if it’s from the 1980s. But that thing is your eyes. And the knobs are fun.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    > I'm afraid none in the West. Speaking, and writing Taiwanese Chinese is something really needed to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication. You should take a look at http://opencircuitdesign.com/ http://opencircuitdesign.com/ You don't need "to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication". You need to search for a VLSI design class.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      A VLSI class, even from an average university will contribute very little to your employability. As I said, Big Semi barely if ever employs entry level professionals. And besides Big Semi, there is really very few companies left. Even startups <$1m are full of seasoned professionals coming from abroad, seeking PhDs in US universities. I think it's more characteristic for semiconductor startups to hire much more senior engineers than the industry average to convince their investors, not the other way around.
  - kken 5y ago
    Nah, sorry that is just not true. Try this one for the US: https://sunypoly.edu/research/albany-nanotech-complex.html https://sunypoly.edu/research/albany-nanotech-complex.html Or this one for Europe: https://www.imec-int.com/en https://www.imec-int.com/en Both world-leading semiconductor technology research institutes (coincidentally both got the first EUV-tools) with plenty of students.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      I know IMEC as I was thinking going there at some point. Both IMEC, and SUNY are heavily graduate research oriented. There are some undergrad opportunities there, but one's chances to get there are probably less than getting into MIT. The "death valley" in between graduation, first employment, and a first real substantial job in semi industry is super-duper real, and acute problem. It's a problem in Asia, and 10x of than in US.
      - kken 5y ago
        I don't know, just apply? Obviously it is important to get hands on experience even as an undergrad. Ideally you can do that at your university, otherwise there are plenty of opportunities for internships. At least in Europe I had absolutely no problem finding one. It can't hurt to also look for second tier companies.
        baybal2 5y ago
        I largely quit trying to get into semi 10 years ago because I was was able to get better salary, and quicker just by pumping wordpress websites. And not like 10%-20% bigger, but few times as much. My first full time job in line of "make us a WP website" was CAD $65k. An intern stipend at a semi lab was $16k cash a year, with a very competitive recruitment like "show us you was in top 10% of your group"
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

tyingq 5y ago

The author of the tweet (Ken Shirriff) is particularly good at explaining things. A couple of his posts showing that: http://www.righto.com/2018/06/silicon-die-analysis-op-amp-with.html http://www.righto.com/2018/06/silicon-die-analysis-op-amp-wi... http://www.righto.com/2016/02/555-timer-teardown-inside-worlds-most.html http://www.righto.com/2016/02/555-timer-teardown-inside-worl...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kens 5y ago

I focus on 1970s and 1980s chips, which are simple enough to understand. For that generation, Mead and Conway's Introduction to VLSI Systems is a good place to start. https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/VLSIText/PP-V2/V2.pdf https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/VLSI/VLSIText/PP-V2/... Old books on chip design are also useful, and can usually be obtained for cheap. Also see The Layman's Guide to IC Reverse Engineering: http://siliconzoo.org/tutorial.html http://siliconzoo.org/tutorial.html