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I read your comment opposed to Damore as something like "Damore says this distribution of traits exists in the general population, but it doesn't necessarily ex

I read your comment opposed to Damore as something like "Damore says this distribution of traits exists in the general population, but it doesn't necessarily exist in the subset of Google." Please correct me if I'm wrong. I think that point is true and I think it is the kind of thing where, if Google were considering taking Damore's feedback, they should investigate. Is Google's population of employees noticeably different from the general population? How about the population of people who interview at Google? I think that the assumption that Google, with 150k (or whatever it was at the time) employees plus candidate employees, roughly approximates population trends is a reasonable starting place for a single author writing up some thoughts. If this were an academic paper we would probably expect the author to consider this at some point. If it's some thoughts the author put together on diversity? Seems like a crazy standard to me. I'm not sure what questions you've asked that haven't been responded to. I see a couple questions in your parent comments asking whether your take on Damore was nuanced/critical. If that's what you're referring to my answers to those questions are that I feel you badly misrepresent Damore and your commentary on him is short of meaningful. Regarding your edit - in my view we have a substantive disagreement here, over Damore. I don't see why we would abandon that to discuss other topics. My position on Damore is that you and others misrepresent Damore in order to gaslight and threaten people who disagree with you. "Unapproved thoughts on diversity? That's an anti-diversity political screed. You are a sexist bigot who will be fired and relentlessly slandered in national media." By gaslighting I mean that you and others pretend to invite "conversation" but when disagreements happen there is less conversing and more heretic-burning. Damore is a perfect example. Google hosts a diversity class, the class asks for feedback, Damore shares his thoughts on diversity, then he is terminated and renounced in the media, and even here, by you, on Hacker News.

civilized 5y ago
I think RangerScience means better than you assume, but you're not wrong about the broader strokes: fake inviting of conversation followed by vicious Cultural Revolution-style denunciation. I commented on it over here as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29610571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29610571
joshuamorton 5y ago
> I think that the assumption that Google, with 150k (or whatever it was at the time) employees plus candidate employees, roughly approximates population trends is a reasonable starting place for a single author writing up some thoughts. If this were an academic paper we would probably expect the author to consider this at some point. If it's some thoughts the author put together on diversity? Seems like a crazy standard to me. But we know this to be untrue: Damore's questions come up as a response to the question of "why does Google have an unrepresentatively low number of women" (and from that, the implied "how do we fix that"). To assume that Google's employees match broad population trends is to assume the entire conversation moot. In fact, everyone involved agrees that Google doesn't match general population trends, so if you're having to assume that to justify Damore's takes, something has gone wrong somewhere! > Google hosts a diversity class, the class asks for feedback, Damore shares his thoughts on diversity For what its worth, this is a pretty serious misrepresentation of things, and if that were the extent of things Damore wouldn't have been fired. As I understand it, he gave the feedback to HR and nothing happened. He proceeded to post the document in larger and larger discussion groups, until he eventually posted it into a really big group, where it was linked to an even bigger group. That's also a big part of what moves this from "feedback" to "manifesto", its disingenuous to call it "feedback on a diversity class" when you're emailing it to a thousand people, nearly none of whom ever took the class. That's pretty far into thesis nailed to the church door territory. The other thing that puts it into "screed" territory is that it doesn't have a coherent thesis. Is it about gender diversity? Well a lot of it is, but it also has a significant subtheme about political diversity (and trying to psychoanalyze Google as a "left-biased" company), and has a number of potshots at "the left". Why?
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  I don't know why you are saying "everyone involved agrees that Google doesn't match broad population trends". Are the men at Google taller than the women at Google? Google employees are probably unusual in variables that relate to their work with computers, but it's not at all obvious that they would be unusual on other traits, like height, for example, or assertiveness, cooperativeness, etc. Regarding Damore sharing his memo - he shared it in places where the topic was being discussed. He wasn't mailing this to all workers, but posting it in groups that were discussing diversity and asking for feedback. If Damore's memo had reached different conclusions - like say that Google had fewer women because of sexism in education and implicit biases among hiring committees, and he had shared it in the same places, would he have been fired? I think we both know the answer to that.
RangerScience 5y ago
> something like Yeah, that's correct. And IMHO, if Damore had presented just that, I would expect the outcome to be different, although still fraught for other reasons. But he didn't present just that. > questions You did end up answering them, although in a different chain! And I appreciate it. > disagreement I mean, bluntly, I'm pretty much ready to abandon it, although since others are engaging seems like you're good to go without me :) > conversation One issue that seems to come up in these situations - not always, and I don't really know one way the other if it came up in Damore's - was recently demonstrated by Dave Chappelle, when he went to his alma mater saying (paraphrased) "let's have a conversation", and then (IMO) very much didn't, even if people said words to each other. So that happens. > you and others So... Like. To the extent that I've invited you to a conversation, that we're then having here - do you feel like we're having a conversation, or do you feel like there's more heretic burning?
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  "Heretic burning" is, obviously, pretty hyperbolic. Nobody is actually being burnt. But, people's (i.e. Damore's) reputations are getting damaged. Other readers have reinforced for them the fact that if you question diversity orthodoxy you will be vilified and fired. I very much think your comments are in that vein - you started with explaining that Damore's memo "was a moderately anti-diversity screed". Damore's memo was not an anti-diversity screed and I don't believe any reasonable reader could reach that conclusion. As such, I view your comments not as participating in conversation but as a warning light to passersby that they will suffer enduring reputational damage should they express the wrong opinions - a reminder that even if your positions are evidence based, measured, and appropriately expressed you will still face the destruction of your career and reputation for expressing those ideas.
  - RangerScience 5y ago
    I'm sticking to my theory that much of what made Damore's document problematic - or problematic enough to warrant what happened - was due to, essentially, tone. Maybe I am naïve, but I do strongly believe that it is completely possible to express non-orthodox positions in a way that doesn't prompt that kind of backlash. (And to put my money at least somewhat where my mouth is, I'll totally workshop something with anyone reading this if they're wanting to express such a position.) Going back to OP, if I rephrase "k-complicity" as "don't challenge people with lethal power; instead be silent", then this all becomes "don't talk normally to people about sensitive things; instead be exceptionally kind."

civilized 5y ago

I think RangerScience means better than you assume, but you're not wrong about the broader strokes: fake inviting of conversation followed by vicious Cultural Revolution-style denunciation. I commented on it over here as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29610571 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29610571

joshuamorton 5y ago

> I think that the assumption that Google, with 150k (or whatever it was at the time) employees plus candidate employees, roughly approximates population trends is a reasonable starting place for a single author writing up some thoughts. If this were an academic paper we would probably expect the author to consider this at some point. If it's some thoughts the author put together on diversity? Seems like a crazy standard to me. But we know this to be untrue: Damore's questions come up as a response to the question of "why does Google have an unrepresentatively low number of women" (and from that, the implied "how do we fix that"). To assume that Google's employees match broad population trends is to assume the entire conversation moot. In fact, everyone involved agrees that Google doesn't match general population trends, so if you're having to assume that to justify Damore's takes, something has gone wrong somewhere! > Google hosts a diversity class, the class asks for feedback, Damore shares his thoughts on diversity For what its worth, this is a pretty serious misrepresentation of things, and if that were the extent of things Damore wouldn't have been fired. As I understand it, he gave the feedback to HR and nothing happened. He proceeded to post the document in larger and larger discussion groups, until he eventually posted it into a really big group, where it was linked to an even bigger group. That's also a big part of what moves this from "feedback" to "manifesto", its disingenuous to call it "feedback on a diversity class" when you're emailing it to a thousand people, nearly none of whom ever took the class. That's pretty far into thesis nailed to the church door territory. The other thing that puts it into "screed" territory is that it doesn't have a coherent thesis. Is it about gender diversity? Well a lot of it is, but it also has a significant subtheme about political diversity (and trying to psychoanalyze Google as a "left-biased" company), and has a number of potshots at "the left". Why?

ALittleLight 5y ago
I don't know why you are saying "everyone involved agrees that Google doesn't match broad population trends". Are the men at Google taller than the women at Google? Google employees are probably unusual in variables that relate to their work with computers, but it's not at all obvious that they would be unusual on other traits, like height, for example, or assertiveness, cooperativeness, etc. Regarding Damore sharing his memo - he shared it in places where the topic was being discussed. He wasn't mailing this to all workers, but posting it in groups that were discussing diversity and asking for feedback. If Damore's memo had reached different conclusions - like say that Google had fewer women because of sexism in education and implicit biases among hiring committees, and he had shared it in the same places, would he have been fired? I think we both know the answer to that.

RangerScience 5y ago

> something like Yeah, that's correct. And IMHO, if Damore had presented just that, I would expect the outcome to be different, although still fraught for other reasons. But he didn't present just that. > questions You did end up answering them, although in a different chain! And I appreciate it. > disagreement I mean, bluntly, I'm pretty much ready to abandon it, although since others are engaging seems like you're good to go without me :) > conversation One issue that seems to come up in these situations - not always, and I don't really know one way the other if it came up in Damore's - was recently demonstrated by Dave Chappelle, when he went to his alma mater saying (paraphrased) "let's have a conversation", and then (IMO) very much didn't, even if people said words to each other. So that happens. > you and others So... Like. To the extent that I've invited you to a conversation, that we're then having here - do you feel like we're having a conversation, or do you feel like there's more heretic burning?

ALittleLight 5y ago
"Heretic burning" is, obviously, pretty hyperbolic. Nobody is actually being burnt. But, people's (i.e. Damore's) reputations are getting damaged. Other readers have reinforced for them the fact that if you question diversity orthodoxy you will be vilified and fired. I very much think your comments are in that vein - you started with explaining that Damore's memo "was a moderately anti-diversity screed". Damore's memo was not an anti-diversity screed and I don't believe any reasonable reader could reach that conclusion. As such, I view your comments not as participating in conversation but as a warning light to passersby that they will suffer enduring reputational damage should they express the wrong opinions - a reminder that even if your positions are evidence based, measured, and appropriately expressed you will still face the destruction of your career and reputation for expressing those ideas.
- RangerScience 5y ago
  I'm sticking to my theory that much of what made Damore's document problematic - or problematic enough to warrant what happened - was due to, essentially, tone. Maybe I am naïve, but I do strongly believe that it is completely possible to express non-orthodox positions in a way that doesn't prompt that kind of backlash. (And to put my money at least somewhat where my mouth is, I'll totally workshop something with anyone reading this if they're wanting to express such a position.) Going back to OP, if I rephrase "k-complicity" as "don't challenge people with lethal power; instead be silent", then this all becomes "don't talk normally to people about sensitive things; instead be exceptionally kind."