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You joke. But I've been ruminating on how to start a political and economic movement committed to dismantling the bureaucratic state by empowering individuals

You joke. But I've been ruminating on how to start a political and economic movement committed to dismantling the bureaucratic state by empowering individuals to be ever more autonomous. Adjacent notions are participatory democracy (a la the Iroquois), banning usury, UBI, worker directed social enterprises, left-libertarian, and healing the world. More to be added as my whimsy and imagination permit.

CamperBob2 5y ago
But I've ruminating on how to start a political and economic movement committed to dismantling the bureaucratic state by empowering individuals to be ever more autonomous. Trouble is, one of the things that empowered, autonomous individuals always seem to do is organize themselves into corporate, governmental, religious, academic, or other institutional bodies that then proceed to behave indistinguishably from the targets they were reacting against in the first place. At each iteration, only the in-group beneficiaries and out-group victims are different. The larger problem is the nature and regulation of human organization, which isn't so easily tackled.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  We have a method for tackling this. Competition. If one company's management is incompetent and as a result their products lose quality or become overpriced, people switch to another supplier. If a state government's laws impose more burden than benefit, people and businesses flee to other states. The problem comes when markets become consolidated and uncompetitive, or bad regulations get applied at the national or international level and there is nowhere to flee. Which persists when upon it happening people say "eh" and do nothing, instead of taking it for the threat that it is and fighting it with all they've got.
dillondoyle 5y ago
Like most of that list! I would love mandatory voting. Can always write in 'i hate the system.' I would add higher government pay scale with rules you can't just outsource to consultant markups. + more nimble technocratic management in government.
contidrift 5y ago
That's great! You might enjoy Ernest Hancock's work at freedomsphoenix.com and pirateswithoutborders.com I think starting small is fine, the main thing is to do it!
- tomrod 5y ago
  Hmmmm looks pretty sketchy. A bit of Googling shows Ernest to be a minor Libertarian party official out of Maricopa County, Az, and anti-vax. What exactly is he doing that you feel is worthy of people's attention? [0] https://lpedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hancock https://lpedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hancock [1] https://thevoicegcc.com/11072/a1news/phoenix-couple-cautions-against-vaccine-mandates/ https://thevoicegcc.com/11072/a1news/phoenix-couple-cautions...
  - specialist 5y ago
    FWIW, I'm fine with recruiting disciples from right-libertarians circle. I'm totally onboard with "freedom from coercion". And that's a pretty good place to start from. As an activist, I spoke to anyone and everyone who'd have me. Socialist, Green, Libertarian, Democratic, Republican, and all sorts of nonpartisan orgs. At the time, I felt everyone's core values were more or less the same. Opinions started to diverge over priority. More so with implementation. Then game-over once the dialog drifted into personalities. I gotta believe that the way forward is flipping the script from nitpicking over differences to emphasizing our agreements. And I sense that one of our shared, unifying, omni-partisan values is our mutual hatred of bureaucracy. Of any kind. Corporate and governmental.
    - tomrod 5y ago
      Was it my comment you were intending to reply to?
      - specialist 5y ago
        Ya. I'm trying to subtly encourage you to not write people off based on their labels, self identified or otherwise. Because you seem reachable somehow. I'm no smarter or better than any one else about this stuff. I have a history of getting really spun up. I do feel my efforts have helped my own mental state. One thing that has helped, for instance, is figuring out that we're all a little bit crazy. Another is realizing that my "own the libs" siblings don't actually believe the stuff they say; it's just sport for them. So I try to not take the bait. Any way. You get the idea. Peace.
s5300 5y ago
First you’ll need a monopoly on violence or somebody’s going to find you with the $5 wrench
tomrod 5y ago
A fellow Tikkun Olam lover? I am not Jewish (culturally or religiously) but love the notion.
- anonnyj 5y ago
  Banning usury is like a direct assault on The Tribe.
SuoDuanDao 5y ago
'Teal society' structures (e.g. holacracy) are probably an appropriate addition to the list. Could you share a link to what you men by 'healing the world'? It's an interesting turn of phrase that I hadn't heard before outside my own coinage.
- specialist 5y ago
  "Heal the world" is something I gleaned from Reform Judaism. I'm trying to learn about misc philosophical traditions. I'm a cultural Christian (Presbyterian) and a treehugger. "Shepherds of the Earth" and all that. I currently like the "heal the world" framing better. Somehow it feels less like proselytizing, maybe more like gnosticism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam#Improving_the_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam#Improving_the_worl...
AnthonyMouse 5y ago
> Adjacent notions are participatory democracy (a la the Iroquois), banning usury, UBI, worker directed social enterprises, left-libertarian, and healing the world. More to be added as my whimsy and imagination permit. Add this to your list: https://www.starvoting.us/ https://www.starvoting.us/ Two party system is poison.

CamperBob2 5y ago

But I've ruminating on how to start a political and economic movement committed to dismantling the bureaucratic state by empowering individuals to be ever more autonomous. Trouble is, one of the things that empowered, autonomous individuals always seem to do is organize themselves into corporate, governmental, religious, academic, or other institutional bodies that then proceed to behave indistinguishably from the targets they were reacting against in the first place. At each iteration, only the in-group beneficiaries and out-group victims are different. The larger problem is the nature and regulation of human organization, which isn't so easily tackled.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
We have a method for tackling this. Competition. If one company's management is incompetent and as a result their products lose quality or become overpriced, people switch to another supplier. If a state government's laws impose more burden than benefit, people and businesses flee to other states. The problem comes when markets become consolidated and uncompetitive, or bad regulations get applied at the national or international level and there is nowhere to flee. Which persists when upon it happening people say "eh" and do nothing, instead of taking it for the threat that it is and fighting it with all they've got.

dillondoyle 5y ago

Like most of that list! I would love mandatory voting. Can always write in 'i hate the system.' I would add higher government pay scale with rules you can't just outsource to consultant markups. + more nimble technocratic management in government.

contidrift 5y ago

That's great! You might enjoy Ernest Hancock's work at freedomsphoenix.com and pirateswithoutborders.com I think starting small is fine, the main thing is to do it!

tomrod 5y ago
Hmmmm looks pretty sketchy. A bit of Googling shows Ernest to be a minor Libertarian party official out of Maricopa County, Az, and anti-vax. What exactly is he doing that you feel is worthy of people's attention? [0] https://lpedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hancock https://lpedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hancock [1] https://thevoicegcc.com/11072/a1news/phoenix-couple-cautions-against-vaccine-mandates/ https://thevoicegcc.com/11072/a1news/phoenix-couple-cautions...
- specialist 5y ago
  FWIW, I'm fine with recruiting disciples from right-libertarians circle. I'm totally onboard with "freedom from coercion". And that's a pretty good place to start from. As an activist, I spoke to anyone and everyone who'd have me. Socialist, Green, Libertarian, Democratic, Republican, and all sorts of nonpartisan orgs. At the time, I felt everyone's core values were more or less the same. Opinions started to diverge over priority. More so with implementation. Then game-over once the dialog drifted into personalities. I gotta believe that the way forward is flipping the script from nitpicking over differences to emphasizing our agreements. And I sense that one of our shared, unifying, omni-partisan values is our mutual hatred of bureaucracy. Of any kind. Corporate and governmental.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    Was it my comment you were intending to reply to?
    - specialist 5y ago
      Ya. I'm trying to subtly encourage you to not write people off based on their labels, self identified or otherwise. Because you seem reachable somehow. I'm no smarter or better than any one else about this stuff. I have a history of getting really spun up. I do feel my efforts have helped my own mental state. One thing that has helped, for instance, is figuring out that we're all a little bit crazy. Another is realizing that my "own the libs" siblings don't actually believe the stuff they say; it's just sport for them. So I try to not take the bait. Any way. You get the idea. Peace.

s5300 5y ago

First you’ll need a monopoly on violence or somebody’s going to find you with the $5 wrench

tomrod 5y ago

A fellow Tikkun Olam lover? I am not Jewish (culturally or religiously) but love the notion.

anonnyj 5y ago
Banning usury is like a direct assault on The Tribe.

SuoDuanDao 5y ago

'Teal society' structures (e.g. holacracy) are probably an appropriate addition to the list. Could you share a link to what you men by 'healing the world'? It's an interesting turn of phrase that I hadn't heard before outside my own coinage.

specialist 5y ago
"Heal the world" is something I gleaned from Reform Judaism. I'm trying to learn about misc philosophical traditions. I'm a cultural Christian (Presbyterian) and a treehugger. "Shepherds of the Earth" and all that. I currently like the "heal the world" framing better. Somehow it feels less like proselytizing, maybe more like gnosticism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam#Improving_the_world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikkun_olam#Improving_the_worl...

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

> Adjacent notions are participatory democracy (a la the Iroquois), banning usury, UBI, worker directed social enterprises, left-libertarian, and healing the world. More to be added as my whimsy and imagination permit. Add this to your list: https://www.starvoting.us/ https://www.starvoting.us/ Two party system is poison.