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There seem to be two camps here: - Bose is an evil megacorp who recklessly endangered its customers by selling dangerous and poorly designed products. - Accid

There seem to be two camps here: - Bose is an evil megacorp who recklessly endangered its customers by selling dangerous and poorly designed products. - Accidents happen and when a device explodes on your head you should accept it as a fact of life and move on. The chemical burns are nothing and OP is a pussy. I think the reality may be different. My take on it is that Li batteries possess inherent dangers and it is incumbent upon manufacturers to take reasonable steps to mitigate the dangers while informing their consumers of the risk. Unfortunately, even when presented with the risks, most folks are unable to comprehend the probabilities and consequences and will nearly always choose convenience, features and value over the avoidance of danger. It seems we, as a society(not as individuals, as some will surely object) have chosen Li technology and deemed it safe enough to deploy ubiquitously. I hope a review of this incident will shed light on the safety practices followed by Bose and will inform future engineers of unforeseen risks, giving us all safer, convenient devices. Overall I find the discussions in this thread unbecoming of the types of folks I thought frequented HN. I hope we can all strive to elevate the dialogue and treat each other with a moderate amount of respect.

romwell 5y ago
>There seem to be two camps here... Third camp reporting! Here's my take (as a Bose product user): 1) Bose QC-35 II headphones are a hazardous product that, in at least one instance, has spontaneously burst into flames and caused chemical burns while being operated according to the manual 2) This product does not come with appropriate warnings[0] that this is a possibility, while, according to comments here, hazards of the battery used are common knowledge among engineers 3) The product's manual instructs the user to take the headphones off if they experience a "warming sensation"[0], indicating that the engineers were aware of the risks, but neither the risks nor mitigation were not described in the instruction manual (compare this with the labels on something as common as epoxy resin) 4) The OP should report this incident to CPSC (as they did[1]!), since this is the body responsible for keeping track of such incidents and that will be able to act upon them if there's a pattern of them happening 5) The medical injuries sustained by the OP are unacceptable; and at the very least, Bose should pay for the medical treatment and resulting productivity loss, as they occurred at no fault of the OP, who trusted Bose's device to be safe to use as described by Bose. (Reminder for our friends outside the US: we don't have universal healthcare) 6) There needs to be some incentive for companies to ensure the safety of their products or actions. In the US, this seems to be (punitive) damages, whereas in Europe it's more through stronger regulations.[2] 7) If the OPs report is true, I also hope they sue Bose. It is important for all of us - people who use Bose products, their roommates etc - that they thoroughly check this incident and make sure it never happens again. They will not do it unless it costs them money and bad publicity.[3] Please let me know what's so radical about it, as many people seem to get angry about it. And fully with you regarding treating others with respect (particularly, it's sad to see the OP being called "hypochondriac" and their concerns dismissed as "paranoid"). It is, as you said, unbecoming. ____________________ Disclaimer: I love my Bose SoundLink Mini II speaker. I bought it, for myself, with my money, which was fully worth it. IMO, it sounds better than any other speaker of the same size that I tried. That doesn't excuse this situation happening, nor how Bose handled it so far. [0] Bose QC-35 II manual: https://assets.bose.com/content/dam/Bose_DAM/Web/consumer_electronics/global/products/headphones/qc35_ii/PDF/811772_og_quietcomfort-35-wireless-ii_en.pdf https://assets.bose.com/content/dam/Bose_DAM/Web/consumer_el... [1] As per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29602614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29602614 [2] In the words of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603800 [3] In the words of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603321
- gruez 5y ago
  >2) This product does not come with appropriate warnings[0] that this is a possibility, while, according to comments here, hazards of the battery used are common knowledge among engineers should it? especially when the risk is so low and warnings like "contents may be hot" on coffee cups or " This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm" are widely derided?
  - romwell 5y ago
    >should it? Yes, it should, because people expect wireless headphones to be as safe as wired ones, which have exactly 0% (zero, zlich, nada) chance of spontaneously catching on fire. Wired headphones are still widely used, made, and sold. This would allow the consumers to make an informed choice, and will give the manufactures of safe devices (wired or wireless) the deserved edge in the market. Also, consider the comments just from this thread about the risks: >In the end you're carrying a high energy density power source on your head that would love to just catch fire. Don't they teach kids anything in chemistry these days? >I mean I’m glad it didn’t happen to me, but a billion people are carrying around billions of Lithium-ion batteries. Those batteries sometimes catch fire because Lithium is highly flammable. It’s gonna happen. >Nothing is perfectly safe, that is how lithium batteries fail. You should know so you can properly deal with problems. >Well, at lease EVs are spontaneously catching fire. >Everyone is aware of the risks, there were a bunch of stories about airplane cell phone fires a few years ago. >lithium battery fires are really nasty, and that's why he got a chemical burn. LiPF6 is a contact irritant, PF5 it decomposes to is a gas, and also a respiratory irritant, and HF PH5 decomposes in the air is a dangerous poisonous acid. This is what everybody visiting a lithium battery factory is told on safety orientation. In case there is fire in the factory, run, preferably until you are few blocks away. So, paradoxically, the risks are both negligible and inevitable, something that every consumer should be prepared for because "everyone knows" batteries explode, but no manufacturer should warn about, mitigate, or account for in the design because who'd buy their product then? I hope you agree that the above is self-contradictory. Now, ultimately, warnings are not a panacea, but they do work. At the very least, having their product labeled as "unsafe to use in bed" would make the manufacturers invest in research that would result in a better product that doesn't merit such a label.
ranger_danger 5y ago
The "Bose is evil" camp are probably the same ones who would damn anyone straight to hell for ever giving money to them, simply because a percentage of their products are "overpriced" and "don't sound as good" as similarly-priced alternatives. Except when it comes to ANC, there really isn't a better solution for the price, I would argue maybe a single Sony model could even attempt to compete in the exact same space and price range.
- romwell 5y ago
  >The "Bose is evil" camp are probably the same ones who would damn anyone straight to hell for ever giving money to them I think the money I paid for my Bose SoundLink Mini II is very much well-spent, and I don't know of any other speaker of the same size which can beat it in quality of sound and battery life. At the same time, some commenters here believe that wanting to hold Bose accountable means I have a bone to pick with them. I feel like the problem here is that people think that the brands they use represent their personality. I love the product from Bose that I own, and that's why I want to see them held accountable for the self-combusting one. That's to ensure I can enjoy using their products going forward, and recommend them without being worried about whether their newest gadget may set my friend's house on fire.
loceng 5y ago
"Unfortunately, even when presented with the risks, most folks are unable to comprehend the probabilities and consequences and will nearly always choose convenience, features and value over the avoidance of danger". Similar in regards to informed consent: if you're even told what the potential consequences are, a layperson may not, likely doesn't, have similar frame of reference to understand what say a potential "side" effect of a medication could be. So how do we determine what's acceptable? What level of actually understanding, and perhaps confirmation of understanding, should be required? Unfortunately it's likely mostly those who were harmed that try to speak out, but as in the vast majority of cases they are the minority and their concerns drowned out - arguably only monetary losses via lawsuits being the impetus for organizations to change, however so long as it's extremely profitable with no jail time for executives who should be accounting and therefore be accountable.
Maursault 5y ago
> My take on it is that Li batteries possess inherent dangers Yes, and most are entirely unaware of the dangers and best practices. I can see what may have happened is that even if the product was new, it may have sat in inventory long enough for the Li-ion cell to have self-discharged below 2.5V and remained below that critical threshold until purchased. Dendrites began forming immediately upon submitting to charge cycles. The dendrites shorted the cell causing thermal runaway. It could have burned the house down.
- romwell 5y ago
  >Yes, and most are entirely unaware of the dangers and best practices. [It] may have happened even if the product was new [...] It could have burned the house down. And yet, the calls to add labels that would allow consumers to tell which products contain lithium batteries at a glance have been derided here. To add to this, my pair of wireless headphones can be also used with a 3.5mm cable, and I often do that, as it allows instant switching between devices. You can't tell they have wireless capability (or lithium batteries in them) just by looking. According to comments, I'm the sole person on this planet who does read the instruction manual. And yet I am learning about thermal runaway in possibility in otherwise non-defective equipment from the HackerNews (thank you for explaining!). Don't we want things to change for the better?
  - Maursault 5y ago
    There's more than just the safety aspect, which, again, is to never allow your cells to drop below 2.5V, though dendritic formation is a function of how long the cell's voltage was below that threshold. At 3.6V, your cell is depleted, and I would expect at least smart devices will have low voltage detection and will shutdown at some low voltage threshold if low battery indicators are ignored. To be clear, it isn't the cell dropping below 2.5V that will cause the cell to turn into a bomb, it is afterwards attempting to recharge it that is dangerous. Stop using and never charge a Li-ion cell that's voltage dropped too low. Recycle it at a battery drop (most hardware stores have a battery drop). The best practices are pretty simple. To get the most life out of a cell (and this is true of Li-ion, NiMH, NiCad, whatever), rest the cells for at least an hour after use and before charging, and after charging and before use. Adopting these rest cycles allows the cell to maintain its capacity. Abusing a cell by never resting it between use or charging will decimate its charge capacity and reduce the amount of amps it can provide compared to when it was new and unused. Do not store Li-ion cells long term at full capacity, but instead at 3.7V. This is actually controversial, but allegedly (though I do not know why) storing at full capacity reduces the life of a cell. And of course don't drop your cells, as it can and will cause internal damage, reducing the life of the cell.

romwell 5y ago

>There seem to be two camps here... Third camp reporting! Here's my take (as a Bose product user): 1) Bose QC-35 II headphones are a hazardous product that, in at least one instance, has spontaneously burst into flames and caused chemical burns while being operated according to the manual 2) This product does not come with appropriate warnings[0] that this is a possibility, while, according to comments here, hazards of the battery used are common knowledge among engineers 3) The product's manual instructs the user to take the headphones off if they experience a "warming sensation"[0], indicating that the engineers were aware of the risks, but neither the risks nor mitigation were not described in the instruction manual (compare this with the labels on something as common as epoxy resin) 4) The OP should report this incident to CPSC (as they did[1]!), since this is the body responsible for keeping track of such incidents and that will be able to act upon them if there's a pattern of them happening 5) The medical injuries sustained by the OP are unacceptable; and at the very least, Bose should pay for the medical treatment and resulting productivity loss, as they occurred at no fault of the OP, who trusted Bose's device to be safe to use as described by Bose. (Reminder for our friends outside the US: we don't have universal healthcare) 6) There needs to be some incentive for companies to ensure the safety of their products or actions. In the US, this seems to be (punitive) damages, whereas in Europe it's more through stronger regulations.[2] 7) If the OPs report is true, I also hope they sue Bose. It is important for all of us - people who use Bose products, their roommates etc - that they thoroughly check this incident and make sure it never happens again. They will not do it unless it costs them money and bad publicity.[3] Please let me know what's so radical about it, as many people seem to get angry about it. And fully with you regarding treating others with respect (particularly, it's sad to see the OP being called "hypochondriac" and their concerns dismissed as "paranoid"). It is, as you said, unbecoming. ____________________ Disclaimer: I love my Bose SoundLink Mini II speaker. I bought it, for myself, with my money, which was fully worth it. IMO, it sounds better than any other speaker of the same size that I tried. That doesn't excuse this situation happening, nor how Bose handled it so far. [0] Bose QC-35 II manual: https://assets.bose.com/content/dam/Bose_DAM/Web/consumer_electronics/global/products/headphones/qc35_ii/PDF/811772_og_quietcomfort-35-wireless-ii_en.pdf https://assets.bose.com/content/dam/Bose_DAM/Web/consumer_el... [1] As per https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29602614 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29602614 [2] In the words of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603800 [3] In the words of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603321 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603321

gruez 5y ago
>2) This product does not come with appropriate warnings[0] that this is a possibility, while, according to comments here, hazards of the battery used are common knowledge among engineers should it? especially when the risk is so low and warnings like "contents may be hot" on coffee cups or " This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm" are widely derided?
- romwell 5y ago
  >should it? Yes, it should, because people expect wireless headphones to be as safe as wired ones, which have exactly 0% (zero, zlich, nada) chance of spontaneously catching on fire. Wired headphones are still widely used, made, and sold. This would allow the consumers to make an informed choice, and will give the manufactures of safe devices (wired or wireless) the deserved edge in the market. Also, consider the comments just from this thread about the risks: >In the end you're carrying a high energy density power source on your head that would love to just catch fire. Don't they teach kids anything in chemistry these days? >I mean I’m glad it didn’t happen to me, but a billion people are carrying around billions of Lithium-ion batteries. Those batteries sometimes catch fire because Lithium is highly flammable. It’s gonna happen. >Nothing is perfectly safe, that is how lithium batteries fail. You should know so you can properly deal with problems. >Well, at lease EVs are spontaneously catching fire. >Everyone is aware of the risks, there were a bunch of stories about airplane cell phone fires a few years ago. >lithium battery fires are really nasty, and that's why he got a chemical burn. LiPF6 is a contact irritant, PF5 it decomposes to is a gas, and also a respiratory irritant, and HF PH5 decomposes in the air is a dangerous poisonous acid. This is what everybody visiting a lithium battery factory is told on safety orientation. In case there is fire in the factory, run, preferably until you are few blocks away. So, paradoxically, the risks are both negligible and inevitable, something that every consumer should be prepared for because "everyone knows" batteries explode, but no manufacturer should warn about, mitigate, or account for in the design because who'd buy their product then? I hope you agree that the above is self-contradictory. Now, ultimately, warnings are not a panacea, but they do work. At the very least, having their product labeled as "unsafe to use in bed" would make the manufacturers invest in research that would result in a better product that doesn't merit such a label.

ranger_danger 5y ago

The "Bose is evil" camp are probably the same ones who would damn anyone straight to hell for ever giving money to them, simply because a percentage of their products are "overpriced" and "don't sound as good" as similarly-priced alternatives. Except when it comes to ANC, there really isn't a better solution for the price, I would argue maybe a single Sony model could even attempt to compete in the exact same space and price range.

romwell 5y ago
>The "Bose is evil" camp are probably the same ones who would damn anyone straight to hell for ever giving money to them I think the money I paid for my Bose SoundLink Mini II is very much well-spent, and I don't know of any other speaker of the same size which can beat it in quality of sound and battery life. At the same time, some commenters here believe that wanting to hold Bose accountable means I have a bone to pick with them. I feel like the problem here is that people think that the brands they use represent their personality. I love the product from Bose that I own, and that's why I want to see them held accountable for the self-combusting one. That's to ensure I can enjoy using their products going forward, and recommend them without being worried about whether their newest gadget may set my friend's house on fire.

loceng 5y ago

"Unfortunately, even when presented with the risks, most folks are unable to comprehend the probabilities and consequences and will nearly always choose convenience, features and value over the avoidance of danger". Similar in regards to informed consent: if you're even told what the potential consequences are, a layperson may not, likely doesn't, have similar frame of reference to understand what say a potential "side" effect of a medication could be. So how do we determine what's acceptable? What level of actually understanding, and perhaps confirmation of understanding, should be required? Unfortunately it's likely mostly those who were harmed that try to speak out, but as in the vast majority of cases they are the minority and their concerns drowned out - arguably only monetary losses via lawsuits being the impetus for organizations to change, however so long as it's extremely profitable with no jail time for executives who should be accounting and therefore be accountable.

Maursault 5y ago

> My take on it is that Li batteries possess inherent dangers Yes, and most are entirely unaware of the dangers and best practices. I can see what may have happened is that even if the product was new, it may have sat in inventory long enough for the Li-ion cell to have self-discharged below 2.5V and remained below that critical threshold until purchased. Dendrites began forming immediately upon submitting to charge cycles. The dendrites shorted the cell causing thermal runaway. It could have burned the house down.

romwell 5y ago
>Yes, and most are entirely unaware of the dangers and best practices. [It] may have happened even if the product was new [...] It could have burned the house down. And yet, the calls to add labels that would allow consumers to tell which products contain lithium batteries at a glance have been derided here. To add to this, my pair of wireless headphones can be also used with a 3.5mm cable, and I often do that, as it allows instant switching between devices. You can't tell they have wireless capability (or lithium batteries in them) just by looking. According to comments, I'm the sole person on this planet who does read the instruction manual. And yet I am learning about thermal runaway in possibility in otherwise non-defective equipment from the HackerNews (thank you for explaining!). Don't we want things to change for the better?
- Maursault 5y ago
  There's more than just the safety aspect, which, again, is to never allow your cells to drop below 2.5V, though dendritic formation is a function of how long the cell's voltage was below that threshold. At 3.6V, your cell is depleted, and I would expect at least smart devices will have low voltage detection and will shutdown at some low voltage threshold if low battery indicators are ignored. To be clear, it isn't the cell dropping below 2.5V that will cause the cell to turn into a bomb, it is afterwards attempting to recharge it that is dangerous. Stop using and never charge a Li-ion cell that's voltage dropped too low. Recycle it at a battery drop (most hardware stores have a battery drop). The best practices are pretty simple. To get the most life out of a cell (and this is true of Li-ion, NiMH, NiCad, whatever), rest the cells for at least an hour after use and before charging, and after charging and before use. Adopting these rest cycles allows the cell to maintain its capacity. Abusing a cell by never resting it between use or charging will decimate its charge capacity and reduce the amount of amps it can provide compared to when it was new and unused. Do not store Li-ion cells long term at full capacity, but instead at 3.7V. This is actually controversial, but allegedly (though I do not know why) storing at full capacity reduces the life of a cell. And of course don't drop your cells, as it can and will cause internal damage, reducing the life of the cell.