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In my understanding (from a french cultural context), asking people questions as part of a field study is not human subjects research. Ethical questions arise w

In my understanding (from a french cultural context), asking people questions as part of a field study is not human subjects research. Ethical questions arise when you ask people to take specific actions in order to measure their reactions, not when you're asking about the status quo.

rtpg 5y ago
Lying about who you are and pretending that you are allowed a certain thing… I mean legally it’s not fraud but it sure feels like it! Imagine someone showing up to your office building pretending to have an interview , walking into the office waiting room, then walking out saying “oh, just an experiment!” “It’s just an email” the ease of the mode of communication here is not super relevant to the action, right?
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > Lying about who you are and pretending that you are allowed a certain thing… I mean legally it’s not fraud but it sure feels like it! I'm not aware of the details, but maybe there's an actual Victor Coutant from Nice on the research team. If not, what does it change? The point is precisely to study how a random person trying to defend their rights to privacy will be received/treated by hosts. You can't study that if you sign your emails with "Princeton privacy researcher". > the mode of communication here is not super relevant to the action, right? Exactly. Researchers will declare themselves as such before conducting interviews, but they'll rarely hesitate to take notes or ask a simple question as part of a field study. I mean if you're not happy this researcher is doing their job to investigate how corporate America mistreats people's data privacy rights, i'd be happy to be the person sending tons of pseudonymous automated emails and handing them over to a researcher. Would that change something for you?!
akira2501 5y ago
> Ethical questions arise when you ask people to take specific actions in order to measure their reactions "Answer my questions within 45 days or I will sue you." That seems to read like a demand for a specific action.
- mynameisvlad 5y ago
  Nonono you don't understand, it was actually "Answer my questions per my extremely benign request including the exact statute requiring your response". Totally different. Obviously. /s
- southerntofu 5y ago
  That's not what the message said. The message asked specific questions about data processing in regards to privacy regulations. Anyone could have sent this message. Hell, i have been on both ends of this message (with CNIL not CCPA) and as an honest person taking part in non-profits i can assure you there's nothing to feel threatened about. Maybe in your Silicon Valley culture where lawsuits are more easily triggered than private data requests things are different, though. The point is, if the author acknowledged they're running a study in the original email (not the follow-up) they would have skewed their data because corporate assholes don't treat college researchers and common people the same.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    > That's not what the message said. The message said: > I look forward to your reply without undue delay and at most within 45 days of this email, as required by Section 1798.130 of the California Civil Code. This is clearly a threat of legal action. Your experiences with CNIL might be misleading. There are few risks of getting bankrupt because of a frivolous lawsuit in Europe, but this is a very real risk in the US. Even if you are in the right and did nothing wrong.
junon 5y ago
The email ended with a "looking forward to your response within 45 days". Immediately in-house council was under the impression it was someone trying to entrap the website owners into a lawsuit for not being compliant. There was a Twitter thread of a number of in-house forwarding to external council which costs time and money. This study incurred monetary damages.
jimmar 5y ago
Guidelines depend on jurisdiction. Research conducted in the United States may have different requirements than other jurisdictions. The underlying ethos is that researchers should respect the people who are participating in their studies. People should know that you are conducting a study, the aims of the study, and choose whether or not they want to participate.

rtpg 5y ago

Lying about who you are and pretending that you are allowed a certain thing… I mean legally it’s not fraud but it sure feels like it! Imagine someone showing up to your office building pretending to have an interview , walking into the office waiting room, then walking out saying “oh, just an experiment!” “It’s just an email” the ease of the mode of communication here is not super relevant to the action, right?

southerntofu 5y ago
> Lying about who you are and pretending that you are allowed a certain thing… I mean legally it’s not fraud but it sure feels like it! I'm not aware of the details, but maybe there's an actual Victor Coutant from Nice on the research team. If not, what does it change? The point is precisely to study how a random person trying to defend their rights to privacy will be received/treated by hosts. You can't study that if you sign your emails with "Princeton privacy researcher". > the mode of communication here is not super relevant to the action, right? Exactly. Researchers will declare themselves as such before conducting interviews, but they'll rarely hesitate to take notes or ask a simple question as part of a field study. I mean if you're not happy this researcher is doing their job to investigate how corporate America mistreats people's data privacy rights, i'd be happy to be the person sending tons of pseudonymous automated emails and handing them over to a researcher. Would that change something for you?!

akira2501 5y ago

> Ethical questions arise when you ask people to take specific actions in order to measure their reactions "Answer my questions within 45 days or I will sue you." That seems to read like a demand for a specific action.

mynameisvlad 5y ago
Nonono you don't understand, it was actually "Answer my questions per my extremely benign request including the exact statute requiring your response". Totally different. Obviously. /s
southerntofu 5y ago
That's not what the message said. The message asked specific questions about data processing in regards to privacy regulations. Anyone could have sent this message. Hell, i have been on both ends of this message (with CNIL not CCPA) and as an honest person taking part in non-profits i can assure you there's nothing to feel threatened about. Maybe in your Silicon Valley culture where lawsuits are more easily triggered than private data requests things are different, though. The point is, if the author acknowledged they're running a study in the original email (not the follow-up) they would have skewed their data because corporate assholes don't treat college researchers and common people the same.
- kergonath 5y ago
  > That's not what the message said. The message said: > I look forward to your reply without undue delay and at most within 45 days of this email, as required by Section 1798.130 of the California Civil Code. This is clearly a threat of legal action. Your experiences with CNIL might be misleading. There are few risks of getting bankrupt because of a frivolous lawsuit in Europe, but this is a very real risk in the US. Even if you are in the right and did nothing wrong.

junon 5y ago

The email ended with a "looking forward to your response within 45 days". Immediately in-house council was under the impression it was someone trying to entrap the website owners into a lawsuit for not being compliant. There was a Twitter thread of a number of in-house forwarding to external council which costs time and money. This study incurred monetary damages.

jimmar 5y ago

Guidelines depend on jurisdiction. Research conducted in the United States may have different requirements than other jurisdictions. The underlying ethos is that researchers should respect the people who are participating in their studies. People should know that you are conducting a study, the aims of the study, and choose whether or not they want to participate.