5 ms·

France is currently occupying a bit of a baseload supplier for its renewable energy neighbours. It may make strategic and economic sense for them to double down

by brnt 5y ago

France is currently occupying a bit of a baseload supplier for its renewable energy neighbours. It may make strategic and economic sense for them to double down: they have the expertise, installed base, friendly environment and market.

wumpus 5y ago
Other than those pesky maintenance issues for older plants, and their proven inability to build new ones at a reasonable price?
southerntofu 5y ago
And they have the (supposedly former) colonies providing nuclear fuel at the cost of protecting their environment and population. And abundant rivers with to cool down the reactors and destroy their local ecosystems. And very collaborative national media outlets who mostly don't cover the nuclear scandals due to being owned by Bouygues (french multinational well-known for telecoms but who also does a fair share of public construction including on the famous EPR) or by the french State. Cozy situation!
- Kuinox 5y ago
  *Citation & sources needed.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    And they have the (supposedly former) colonies providing nuclear fuel at the cost of protecting their environment and population. [0] And abundant rivers with to cool down the reactors and destroy their local ecosystems. [1] And very collaborative national media outlets who mostly don't cover the nuclear scandals due to being owned by Bouygues [2] (french multinational well-known for telecoms but who also does a fair share of public construction including on the famous EPR [3]) or by the french State [4]. Some additions: - misleading/missing news reports on nuclear topics was covered by the 2012 documentary "Les nouveaux chiens de garde" [5] (the new watchdogs) about media corruption and disinformation: they went through two days worth of news broadcast on two TV channels to compare how was presented (or not) the fact that Bouygues had major engineering failures on the EPR construction - the french government has a history of repression against ecological/anti-nuclear movements, ranging from the murder in 1977 of Vital Michalon by police forces [6] during an anti-nuclear protest, to the harassment and military (gendarmerie) occupation of Bure (Meuse) and surrounding villages, including dozens of house searches, a bunch of prison sentences, and an ongoing investigation of eco-anarchists for "criminal association" [7] - and don't even get me started on how to (not) deconstruct those facilities [8] [0] https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/french-nuclear-power-fed-uranium-niger https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/french-nuclear-power-fe... [1] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2019/ph241/clark1/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2019/ph241/clark1/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TF1_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TF1_Group ; also see previous addition about TF1's non-coverage of EPR-related incidents [3] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9acteur_pressuris%C3%A9_europ%C3%A9en https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9acteur_pressuris%C3%A9_... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_T%C3%A9l%C3%A9visions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_T%C3%A9l%C3%A9visions - no specific source about "censorship" of nuclear incidents, however there is a strong and documented history of firing journalists and humorists who are too critical of the french State and corporations, and of self-censorship ; see also acrimed.org (french only sorry) [5] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Nouveaux_Chiens_de_garde_(film) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Nouveaux_Chiens_de_garde_(... [6] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vital_Michalon https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vital_Michalon [7] https://bureburebure.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EN-Bure-History-and-context.pdf https://bureburebure.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EN-Bure... [8] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29600399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29600399
    - Glawen 5y ago
      France is bad, controls Africa and is responsible for everything going bad there. Yeah I've heard that already.
      - southerntofu 5y ago
        > France is bad That fact is indisputable. The history of France is that of colonization, military repression, political police and suppression of local cultures. > controls Africa and is responsible for everything going bad there Not all of Africa, and large swaths of the french Empire are currently "threatened" by Chinese neocolonialism. Since the death of "Monsieur Afrique" [0] and the many Bolloré scandals, France's ability to corrupt and murder african officials has arguably diminished. Also worth noting that the new generations in French-dominated Africa are growing a revolt against neocolonial exploitation. For example, the money France prints to keep a dozen countries in check economically has been at the center of widespread protests these past years, to the point Macron had to abandon it... to announce in the same sentence that from his throne he'll replace it with a new money called Eco (how ironic). [2] [0] Jacques Foccart famously oversaw African exploitation under all governments from De Gaulle to Chiraq over several decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA_franc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA_franc [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco_(currency) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco_(currency)
    - Kuinox 5y ago
      You are nitpicking examples thats follow what you think, and is typical for someone highly biaised. On [0], you take one example, while forgotting to says thats the majority of nuclear fuel come from developed country (Canada, Russia, Australia). On [1] you take an Americain study, and you somehow forget to says that french nuclear reactor have a heating limit of the water to avoid these issues. On [2], simple counterexample: https://www.lci.fr/international/centrale-de-taishan-l-histoire-mouvementee-de-l-epr-fleuron-du-nucleaire-francais-2188781.html https://www.lci.fr/international/centrale-de-taishan-l-histo... Didn't watched [5], no opinions. [6] was 40 years ago, like you said. [7] Higly biaised source. [8] Yes it looks like you don't know what you are talking about, so let's not talk about it. There has been multiple dismantled nuclear plants, and you love forgetting about it.
- uranius 5y ago
  I don't understand the point about nuclear fuel. The whole reason France went nuclear is to have energy independence, because you can source uranium from pretty much anywhere (unlike fossil fuels). The largest exporters of uranium in the world are Kazakhstan, Canada and Australia. Those aren't former French colonies. But, yes, there are also countries in Africa that export uranium, but that's the point; if you look at a map of uranium reserves you'll find it's pretty much all over the world (and not really that much in Africa, actually).
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    To my (limited) knowledge 100% of nuclear fuel used by French nuclear facilities comes from former french colonies in Africa, although french companies (Areva) are involved in uranium exploitation in other parts of the world as well. I'm not saying french (neo-)colonies are the only place to get uranium from. I'm saying it's very cozy to have the dictators your colonial secret services set up over the years provide you with cheap resources.
trhway 5y ago
> baseload supplier the cost of 1GW nuclear these days is starting at $6B. For that amount of money you can double/triple diversify between solar and wind, so you'll always have that 1GW baseload and with much lesser hassle and damage than nuclear. >its renewable energy neighbours And nuclear is bad investment from that POV too - 10-20 years down the road after building reliable renewable energy system Germany for example will ask itself "Why we're still supporting the nuclear next door?" France isn't Lithuania of course and will be much harder to force to shut down nuclear, yet i think that neighbors pressure is coming.
- Krssst 5y ago
  > double/triple diversify between solar and wind How would doubling / tripling help you when there is little wind and clouds for a few days?
  - trhway 5y ago
    Clouds in Alger while no wind in Atlantic? Total, so not even 0.5 GW generated among them for days so the storage gets depleted too.
  - powerbroker 5y ago
    Get the Electric Vehicles to 'stock up' on kWh prior to the cloudy/no-wind period. And then induce them not to charge during the cloudy/no-wind period with a 'renewable hiatus' premium, of, say, 50-100% of the normal price of a kWh.
    - Krssst 5y ago
      A Tesla model S seems to be able to store 100kWh. France seems to have ~30M cars. So, 100e330e63600~=1e16 J storage assuming all those cars switch to being Tesla S, and are somehow kept unused. France consumed 529e6/1.17 MHw according to https://www.worldometers.info/electricity/france-electricity/ https://www.worldometers.info/electricity/france-electricity... (in 2016). So, average consumption is 529e12/1.17*3600/365/86400 ~= 50GW. 1e16J / 50GW is 200,000 seconds or 2.3 days. So, not completely unreasonable, but it still seems on the low side (only two days), and I am not sure what the impact would be on car batteries to be continuously charged/discharged. This also assumes cars are left at home to serve the grid. This also assumes electricity consumption does not increase, which seems unlikely (since transportation and heating must switch to electricity at some point).

by brnt 5y ago

wumpus 5y ago

Other than those pesky maintenance issues for older plants, and their proven inability to build new ones at a reasonable price?

southerntofu 5y ago

And they have the (supposedly former) colonies providing nuclear fuel at the cost of protecting their environment and population. And abundant rivers with to cool down the reactors and destroy their local ecosystems. And very collaborative national media outlets who mostly don't cover the nuclear scandals due to being owned by Bouygues (french multinational well-known for telecoms but who also does a fair share of public construction including on the famous EPR) or by the french State. Cozy situation!

Kuinox 5y ago
*Citation & sources needed.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  And they have the (supposedly former) colonies providing nuclear fuel at the cost of protecting their environment and population. [0] And abundant rivers with to cool down the reactors and destroy their local ecosystems. [1] And very collaborative national media outlets who mostly don't cover the nuclear scandals due to being owned by Bouygues [2] (french multinational well-known for telecoms but who also does a fair share of public construction including on the famous EPR [3]) or by the french State [4]. Some additions: - misleading/missing news reports on nuclear topics was covered by the 2012 documentary "Les nouveaux chiens de garde" [5] (the new watchdogs) about media corruption and disinformation: they went through two days worth of news broadcast on two TV channels to compare how was presented (or not) the fact that Bouygues had major engineering failures on the EPR construction - the french government has a history of repression against ecological/anti-nuclear movements, ranging from the murder in 1977 of Vital Michalon by police forces [6] during an anti-nuclear protest, to the harassment and military (gendarmerie) occupation of Bure (Meuse) and surrounding villages, including dozens of house searches, a bunch of prison sentences, and an ongoing investigation of eco-anarchists for "criminal association" [7] - and don't even get me started on how to (not) deconstruct those facilities [8] [0] https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/french-nuclear-power-fed-uranium-niger https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/french-nuclear-power-fe... [1] http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2019/ph241/clark1/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2019/ph241/clark1/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TF1_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TF1_Group ; also see previous addition about TF1's non-coverage of EPR-related incidents [3] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9acteur_pressuris%C3%A9_europ%C3%A9en https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9acteur_pressuris%C3%A9_... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_T%C3%A9l%C3%A9visions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_T%C3%A9l%C3%A9visions - no specific source about "censorship" of nuclear incidents, however there is a strong and documented history of firing journalists and humorists who are too critical of the french State and corporations, and of self-censorship ; see also acrimed.org (french only sorry) [5] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Nouveaux_Chiens_de_garde_(film) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Nouveaux_Chiens_de_garde_(... [6] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vital_Michalon https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vital_Michalon [7] https://bureburebure.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EN-Bure-History-and-context.pdf https://bureburebure.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EN-Bure... [8] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29600399 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29600399
  - Glawen 5y ago
    France is bad, controls Africa and is responsible for everything going bad there. Yeah I've heard that already.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > France is bad That fact is indisputable. The history of France is that of colonization, military repression, political police and suppression of local cultures. > controls Africa and is responsible for everything going bad there Not all of Africa, and large swaths of the french Empire are currently "threatened" by Chinese neocolonialism. Since the death of "Monsieur Afrique" [0] and the many Bolloré scandals, France's ability to corrupt and murder african officials has arguably diminished. Also worth noting that the new generations in French-dominated Africa are growing a revolt against neocolonial exploitation. For example, the money France prints to keep a dozen countries in check economically has been at the center of widespread protests these past years, to the point Macron had to abandon it... to announce in the same sentence that from his throne he'll replace it with a new money called Eco (how ironic). [2] [0] Jacques Foccart famously oversaw African exploitation under all governments from De Gaulle to Chiraq over several decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA_franc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA_franc [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco_(currency) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco_(currency)
  - Kuinox 5y ago
    You are nitpicking examples thats follow what you think, and is typical for someone highly biaised. On [0], you take one example, while forgotting to says thats the majority of nuclear fuel come from developed country (Canada, Russia, Australia). On [1] you take an Americain study, and you somehow forget to says that french nuclear reactor have a heating limit of the water to avoid these issues. On [2], simple counterexample: https://www.lci.fr/international/centrale-de-taishan-l-histoire-mouvementee-de-l-epr-fleuron-du-nucleaire-francais-2188781.html https://www.lci.fr/international/centrale-de-taishan-l-histo... Didn't watched [5], no opinions. [6] was 40 years ago, like you said. [7] Higly biaised source. [8] Yes it looks like you don't know what you are talking about, so let's not talk about it. There has been multiple dismantled nuclear plants, and you love forgetting about it.
uranius 5y ago
I don't understand the point about nuclear fuel. The whole reason France went nuclear is to have energy independence, because you can source uranium from pretty much anywhere (unlike fossil fuels). The largest exporters of uranium in the world are Kazakhstan, Canada and Australia. Those aren't former French colonies. But, yes, there are also countries in Africa that export uranium, but that's the point; if you look at a map of uranium reserves you'll find it's pretty much all over the world (and not really that much in Africa, actually).
- southerntofu 5y ago
  To my (limited) knowledge 100% of nuclear fuel used by French nuclear facilities comes from former french colonies in Africa, although french companies (Areva) are involved in uranium exploitation in other parts of the world as well. I'm not saying french (neo-)colonies are the only place to get uranium from. I'm saying it's very cozy to have the dictators your colonial secret services set up over the years provide you with cheap resources.

trhway 5y ago

> baseload supplier the cost of 1GW nuclear these days is starting at $6B. For that amount of money you can double/triple diversify between solar and wind, so you'll always have that 1GW baseload and with much lesser hassle and damage than nuclear. >its renewable energy neighbours And nuclear is bad investment from that POV too - 10-20 years down the road after building reliable renewable energy system Germany for example will ask itself "Why we're still supporting the nuclear next door?" France isn't Lithuania of course and will be much harder to force to shut down nuclear, yet i think that neighbors pressure is coming.

Krssst 5y ago
> double/triple diversify between solar and wind How would doubling / tripling help you when there is little wind and clouds for a few days?
- trhway 5y ago
  Clouds in Alger while no wind in Atlantic? Total, so not even 0.5 GW generated among them for days so the storage gets depleted too.
- powerbroker 5y ago
  Get the Electric Vehicles to 'stock up' on kWh prior to the cloudy/no-wind period. And then induce them not to charge during the cloudy/no-wind period with a 'renewable hiatus' premium, of, say, 50-100% of the normal price of a kWh.
  - Krssst 5y ago
    A Tesla model S seems to be able to store 100kWh. France seems to have ~30M cars. So, 100e330e63600~=1e16 J storage assuming all those cars switch to being Tesla S, and are somehow kept unused. France consumed 529e6/1.17 MHw according to https://www.worldometers.info/electricity/france-electricity/ https://www.worldometers.info/electricity/france-electricity... (in 2016). So, average consumption is 529e12/1.17*3600/365/86400 ~= 50GW. 1e16J / 50GW is 200,000 seconds or 2.3 days. So, not completely unreasonable, but it still seems on the low side (only two days), and I am not sure what the impact would be on car batteries to be continuously charged/discharged. This also assumes cars are left at home to serve the grid. This also assumes electricity consumption does not increase, which seems unlikely (since transportation and heating must switch to electricity at some point).