4 ms·

put a big IMO/IMU around all of this, but the SAT/ACT isn't objective in the sense that studying for them is something you can do to improve your score and your

by dastbe 5y ago

put a big IMO/IMU around all of this, but the SAT/ACT isn't objective in the sense that studying for them is something you can do to improve your score and your prospects. However, it is also transparent in how you do that: you take a course, get study books, and/or take practice tests and there are programs out that have been trying to help disadvantaged students get access to these tools. its also much more cost effective compared to the other solutions like going to a private school (difficult, can be costly without aid) or getting into expensive niche sports. so imo getting rid of standardized tests does get rid of a subjective rating of an applicant which is good in theory, but when you leave in all of the other subjective ratings that are much more difficult for disadvantaged students to do well on it who is it actually benefiting?

sokoloff 5y ago
It’s well-known how to train for foot races and that training will improve your natural/untrained performance. That doesn’t make a timed foot race a subjective measure, IMO.
- dastbe 5y ago
  subjective/objective are probably not the right adjectives here, but to use your example I would say that a timed foot race is an objective measure of how well you do in timed foot races, but is not an objective measure of your innate athletic ability because of training/coaching and you have to factor those to attempt to back into physical ability. the same is true for the SAT, in that people treat it like an intelligence/general knowledge test when you have to factor in the specific training that person has had for the SAT itself.
  - OnlineGladiator 5y ago
    So what do you propose is more objective (or whatever qualifier you prefer) than the SAT? Pointing out shortcomings of standardized tests is one thing. Advocating for eliminating what seems to be our most equal/standardized/objective/whatever measurement without a replacement seems like a bad idea to me.
    - afiori 5y ago
      Not really about SATs, but about a different direction to take the concept of college and higher education. https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidies/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidie...
      - pgwhalen 5y ago
        That's an interesting read, and I personally am a fan of Scott's somewhat radical views on college education in America, but surely you recognize that you are directly side-stepping the question? The problem at hand here is not about "how to decide who to get into undergrad", it's "how to decide who to train for the 'elite' jobs in society".
    - dastbe 5y ago
      if you read my first comment i never argued for getting rid of the sat, though they should get rid of the usurious prices for tests and sending your scores out. in fact, i argued that of all the subjective tests the sat has the most legible and accessible path to maximizing your score compared to all the other subjective things colleges look at.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    A timed foot race is a quite reasonable measurement of athletic capability - like, it's not a perfect one and a more thorough and diverse evaluation would be better, but if you don't have a better evaluation option then it's obvious that it has some information; if you'd take a hundred random people and split them into two halves based on foot race times, then that would be a far better separation than one based on randomness or any factors that measure athleticness even less. I mean, it's okay to use the best imperfect metric you have available; so acknowledging "the metric is not fully correlated and depends on other factors" does not mean anything, the only argument that has weight is "hey, this other metric has better correlation with The True Thing and less bias, use that instead"; if the remaining alternative metrics are even less objective and more biased than SAT/ACT tests (which IMHO is the case), then removing SAT tests won't and can't improve things, despite these tests being flawed.
    - dastbe 5y ago
      that would work if you were talking about random people who were selected to do a surprise track race, but if the track race is known to be THE measure and that can be influenced by training then you’re going to see skew. to be clear, i still think the sat is better than everything else because preparation is much more legible and accessible compared to all of the other ways to stand out for college applications.
pgwhalen 5y ago
While it's true that one can improve their standardized test scores by studying or taking a course, and the ability to do those things is correlated to a student's socio-economic situation; if you label standardized tests as subjective, then for me it follows that there is no objective measure of a student period. Which begs the question, who exactly do you admit to your school, and why?
WalterBright 5y ago
I haunt thrift stores, and almost always there are SAT/ACT prep books for sale for a couple dollars. You can probably get them for free from your local library. In my not-so-humble opinion, however, the best way to prep for the verbal SAT is to read books. Novels are fine. For the math, prep by taking all the math classes your school offers, and make an effort to learn all the material. Do that, and you won't need prep classes, and you'll also be well prepared for college.

by dastbe 5y ago

sokoloff 5y ago

It’s well-known how to train for foot races and that training will improve your natural/untrained performance. That doesn’t make a timed foot race a subjective measure, IMO.

dastbe 5y ago
subjective/objective are probably not the right adjectives here, but to use your example I would say that a timed foot race is an objective measure of how well you do in timed foot races, but is not an objective measure of your innate athletic ability because of training/coaching and you have to factor those to attempt to back into physical ability. the same is true for the SAT, in that people treat it like an intelligence/general knowledge test when you have to factor in the specific training that person has had for the SAT itself.
- OnlineGladiator 5y ago
  So what do you propose is more objective (or whatever qualifier you prefer) than the SAT? Pointing out shortcomings of standardized tests is one thing. Advocating for eliminating what seems to be our most equal/standardized/objective/whatever measurement without a replacement seems like a bad idea to me.
  - afiori 5y ago
    Not really about SATs, but about a different direction to take the concept of college and higher education. https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidies/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidie...
    - pgwhalen 5y ago
      That's an interesting read, and I personally am a fan of Scott's somewhat radical views on college education in America, but surely you recognize that you are directly side-stepping the question? The problem at hand here is not about "how to decide who to get into undergrad", it's "how to decide who to train for the 'elite' jobs in society".
  - dastbe 5y ago
    if you read my first comment i never argued for getting rid of the sat, though they should get rid of the usurious prices for tests and sending your scores out. in fact, i argued that of all the subjective tests the sat has the most legible and accessible path to maximizing your score compared to all the other subjective things colleges look at.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  A timed foot race is a quite reasonable measurement of athletic capability - like, it's not a perfect one and a more thorough and diverse evaluation would be better, but if you don't have a better evaluation option then it's obvious that it has some information; if you'd take a hundred random people and split them into two halves based on foot race times, then that would be a far better separation than one based on randomness or any factors that measure athleticness even less. I mean, it's okay to use the best imperfect metric you have available; so acknowledging "the metric is not fully correlated and depends on other factors" does not mean anything, the only argument that has weight is "hey, this other metric has better correlation with The True Thing and less bias, use that instead"; if the remaining alternative metrics are even less objective and more biased than SAT/ACT tests (which IMHO is the case), then removing SAT tests won't and can't improve things, despite these tests being flawed.
  - dastbe 5y ago
    that would work if you were talking about random people who were selected to do a surprise track race, but if the track race is known to be THE measure and that can be influenced by training then you’re going to see skew. to be clear, i still think the sat is better than everything else because preparation is much more legible and accessible compared to all of the other ways to stand out for college applications.

pgwhalen 5y ago

While it's true that one can improve their standardized test scores by studying or taking a course, and the ability to do those things is correlated to a student's socio-economic situation; if you label standardized tests as subjective, then for me it follows that there is no objective measure of a student period. Which begs the question, who exactly do you admit to your school, and why?

WalterBright 5y ago

I haunt thrift stores, and almost always there are SAT/ACT prep books for sale for a couple dollars. You can probably get them for free from your local library. In my not-so-humble opinion, however, the best way to prep for the verbal SAT is to read books. Novels are fine. For the math, prep by taking all the math classes your school offers, and make an effort to learn all the material. Do that, and you won't need prep classes, and you'll also be well prepared for college.