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As a former hipster (and music subculture producer) I can attest that what drove us is not the desire to differentiate, but that the mainstream elite were lifel

As a former hipster (and music subculture producer) I can attest that what drove us is not the desire to differentiate, but that the mainstream elite were lifeless bullshit and we wanted to express something new that only we could sense. We were being us, not "not them". Decades later, it's what the mainstream now sounds like. It always percolates up.

eightysixfour 5y ago
I won't suggest that you did not FEEL that way when you were doing it, but what you just wrote sounds exactly what I said in socially-coded language. > I can attest that what drove us is not the desire to differentiate, but that the mainstream elite were lifeless bullshit Here you state that the mainstream elite was "lifeless bullshit." > we wanted to express something new And you wanted to express NOT lifeless bullshit. > that only we could sense. We were being us This is what the mainstream elite couldn't see or make. It was NOT mainstream elite thought. > it's what the mainstream now sounds like The mainstream adopted it, and now there's a new generation of people who think that sound is mainstream lifeless bullshit and will create something that is NOT mainstream lifeless bullshit. This is not part of the Graeber thesis, but aligns well with the original post. I also want to be clear that I don't think this is supposed to be a conscious process - there are times when people are intentionally contrarian but there are also people and groups who are unconsciously contrarian simply by saying "I don't like this thing."
- crucialfelix 5y ago
  I agree, its a different framing of the same process. On further reflection there was a lot of deliberate removal of pop or mainstream rave signals. We were excluding their signals to create our own space. Minimal Techno is pretty much defined by it's rules of what isn't allowed. So that's conscious differentiation.
- oblak 5y ago
  Exactly. OP is the poster child for lack of self awareness
- jancsika 5y ago
  > The mainstream adopted it, and now there's a new generation of people who think that sound is mainstream lifeless bullshit and will create something that is NOT mainstream lifeless bullshit. That doesn't follow. 1. a blues singer listens to mainstream 2. a blues singer hears a variety of blues influences on the mainstream 3. a blues singer says, "Hey great, we got some blues influences in the mainstream, let me try to add some more"
  - eightysixfour 5y ago
    What? I think we're talking about different processes and different time frames. The blues musician who just wants to be popular/mainstream isn't really what I'm going for, because they stop at step 2: 1. "Hipster" creates music that is anti-mainsteam, becomes popular for doing something different (and doing it well, at the right time/place, etc.) 2. Over years, mainstream music adopts unique thing hipster did. <- this is where you stop 3 New generation of hipsters create music that is anti-mainstream... <- this is what is relevant to this discussion You can find examples of the above in any modern genre of music and I would argue is a part of a bigger pattern that happens to any sub/counter culture.
jktogjfnn 5y ago
This is called "teenage rebelion". It's a real psychological thing. Some say it's an evolutionary feature to prevent societal ossification.

eightysixfour 5y ago

I won't suggest that you did not FEEL that way when you were doing it, but what you just wrote sounds exactly what I said in socially-coded language. > I can attest that what drove us is not the desire to differentiate, but that the mainstream elite were lifeless bullshit Here you state that the mainstream elite was "lifeless bullshit." > we wanted to express something new And you wanted to express NOT lifeless bullshit. > that only we could sense. We were being us This is what the mainstream elite couldn't see or make. It was NOT mainstream elite thought. > it's what the mainstream now sounds like The mainstream adopted it, and now there's a new generation of people who think that sound is mainstream lifeless bullshit and will create something that is NOT mainstream lifeless bullshit. This is not part of the Graeber thesis, but aligns well with the original post. I also want to be clear that I don't think this is supposed to be a conscious process - there are times when people are intentionally contrarian but there are also people and groups who are unconsciously contrarian simply by saying "I don't like this thing."

crucialfelix 5y ago
I agree, its a different framing of the same process. On further reflection there was a lot of deliberate removal of pop or mainstream rave signals. We were excluding their signals to create our own space. Minimal Techno is pretty much defined by it's rules of what isn't allowed. So that's conscious differentiation.
oblak 5y ago
Exactly. OP is the poster child for lack of self awareness
jancsika 5y ago
> The mainstream adopted it, and now there's a new generation of people who think that sound is mainstream lifeless bullshit and will create something that is NOT mainstream lifeless bullshit. That doesn't follow. 1. a blues singer listens to mainstream 2. a blues singer hears a variety of blues influences on the mainstream 3. a blues singer says, "Hey great, we got some blues influences in the mainstream, let me try to add some more"
- eightysixfour 5y ago
  What? I think we're talking about different processes and different time frames. The blues musician who just wants to be popular/mainstream isn't really what I'm going for, because they stop at step 2: 1. "Hipster" creates music that is anti-mainsteam, becomes popular for doing something different (and doing it well, at the right time/place, etc.) 2. Over years, mainstream music adopts unique thing hipster did. <- this is where you stop 3 New generation of hipsters create music that is anti-mainstream... <- this is what is relevant to this discussion You can find examples of the above in any modern genre of music and I would argue is a part of a bigger pattern that happens to any sub/counter culture.

jktogjfnn 5y ago

This is called "teenage rebelion". It's a real psychological thing. Some say it's an evolutionary feature to prevent societal ossification.