4 ms·

this is exactly the white savior crap that much of the world hates from the US. the sheer arrogance to think that even a significant fraction of Taiwanese would

by bllguo 5y ago

this is exactly the white savior crap that much of the world hates from the US. the sheer arrogance to think that even a significant fraction of Taiwanese would be interested in moving to America, let alone the entire populace. And then the gall to suggest _Ohio, the Mojave, and Alaska_. Bit on the nose, don't you think? I don't understand how you think this rhetoric helps anyone. I guess it lets Americans puff out their chest?

dragonwriter 5y ago
> this is exactly the white savior crap Really, it's a lot worse; White savior crap usually has at least a couple levels of indirection between it and the outright ethnically-stereotyped economic exploitation of the “beneficiaries”. (To be fair, the latter does usually end up accompanying it, but usually not as an overt part of the initial sales pitch.)
vaxman 5y ago
What I actually wrote: “[Taiwan refugees] can help [USA] rebuild the infrastructure [of] Shanghai and Guangdong in Ohio Valley, Mojave/Sonora or Alaska regions” There is no suggestion that any Taiwanese citizens be forced to relocate, be confined to or even visit those spectacular areas of North America! Seriously comrade, me thinks you protest too much.
siculars 5y ago
No, no, this is about exactly right. When the CCP comes for Taiwan, the exodus will be on a scale unseen in our generation. It seems your family history has been blessed to not know this sort of existential crisis. For generations now, The US of America is, actually and literally, viewed as the land of salvation and opportunity for millions of people around the world. Do not pretend that it is not.
- bllguo 5y ago
  your appeal to emotion rings hollow. Did I deny that? My family viewed the US as such in the past. No longer, I can assure you. It is precisely because we have experienced life in the US and Asia that I feel that I can actually comment on this topic. If you seriously think millions of Taiwanese think this of America I would love to see your reaction when you travel there. Ohio, the Mojave, Alaska. Insulting on a whole new level, really.
  - filoleg 5y ago
    > If you seriously think millions of Taiwanese think this of America I would love to see your reaction when you travel there. Whether intentionally or not, I think you are misreading the parent comment. They never claimed that this is how the Taiwanese population views the US now. They are claiming that this is how they are very likely to start viewing the US when/if CCP starts marching towards Taiwan. Those two statements are very different.
    - bllguo 5y ago
      Thanks. That's a more reasonable statement but I still stand by my main points that 1. a much, much larger contingent would stay than Americans seem to think, 2. the US is far less desirable a location now than ever, and 3. those that do come to the US will not be going to our backwaters, hell the standard of life in Taipei is arguably higher than in top American cities. I also think violent takeover is a remote hypothetical but that's another discussion.
      - filoleg 5y ago
        Absolutely. Those points you are making [regarding why you don't believe that Taiwanese people will have a heavy majority that is for escaping to the US], they are valid, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. And I don't necessarily have a strong reasoning for disagreeing with them, hence why I am perfectly ok with agreeing to disagree on those. Especially since I agree with you in premise, I just disagree on the magnitude. I fully agree with the violent takeover being a remote hypothetical though.
  - Turing_Machine 5y ago
    Okay, I'll bite. Why is Alaska "insulting"? Note: I live there, and it's awesome. Ohio is also a perfectly fine place to live.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      How would you respond to being asked (forced?) to move to Ohio? Or perhaps Germany?
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  This is something we can actually measure with polling. 750 million people worldwide wanted to migrate as of 2017: https://news.gallup.com/poll/245255/750-million-worldwide-migrate.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/245255/750-million-worldwide-mi... Of those, the US is the most frequent top preferred destination, at 21% or 158 million. Gallup also publishes a Potential Net Migration Index for each country, which finds that net 17% of Taiwan would like to leave, including 25% of the youth. This data is from 2015-2017.
- iszomer 5y ago
  Times have changed. I've lived through that era where much of my childhood years were living under the impending threat of a takeover but over the years, I've come to realize that the path laid by the late Lee Teng-hui had been a noble and justified one. If it weren't for him and history, I would have continued to believe in the KMT (I no longer do).
- dang 5y ago
  Please do not take HN threads further into flamewar hell, and please keep personal attacks off of HN. Not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ddoolin 5y ago
I'm inclined to agree. Half of the Taiwanese in the US live in California and the rest mostly in Texas/NY. They are a highly-educated, modern populace, they aren't going to go "building railroads in flyover country," let alone come here at all. There will be some sort of exodus that will likely be supported by the US gov't but I can't imagine it being anywhere nearing the millions mark.
fdschoeneman 5y ago
Calling someone you disagree with a racist is unhelpful.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
reaperducer 5y ago
this is exactly the white savior crap that much of the world hates from the US How do you have information that he's white, or even American? I couldn't see anything like that in his profile. I read it as the voice of someone in Taiwan asking for help. And then the gall to suggest _Ohio, the Mojave, and Alaska_. Bit on the nose, don't you think? I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Can you elaborate for the rest of us? Most of your comment comes off as just anti-American sentiment, but zero actual information or discussion of the topic at hand.
- fabcity 5y ago
  Agreed…i didn’t see any sort of racism in the comment. I read his location choices as having more to do more with supporting a semiconductor / advanced manufacturing base - sort of an expansion of the TSMC fab being built in AZ.
lucb1e 5y ago
> this is exactly the white savior crap that much of the world hates from the US I'm the kind of person that hates this kind of crap from the US, like, interfering with foreign governments to increase their freedom is the kind of doublespeak I'm not too thrilled about. But this does seem a bit different. Here people from Taiwan are proposed to be given an evacuation route. Nobody said anything about invading and taking the whole population by force. An alternative proposal I saw mentioned is to keep Taiwan out of China's hands which seems way more invasive (and risky, like, world war type risky) by comparison. I do agree that the specific "dump them in one of our deserts" idea would not be what first comes to my mind, but ignoring the specifics for now, I'm not sure that this is how GP meant it. (And leaving completely in the middle whether this is feasible or a good idea for all the other reasons. I'm just commenting on the "provide option to get away" -> "don't do savior crap" part.)
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell. Doing that is worse than the original offense, because if people didn't fan flames, the original provocation would simply fizzle, as it deserved. Instead, you amplified it, as well as egregiously breaking HN's rules with your own comment. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

by bllguo 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> this is exactly the white savior crap Really, it's a lot worse; White savior crap usually has at least a couple levels of indirection between it and the outright ethnically-stereotyped economic exploitation of the “beneficiaries”. (To be fair, the latter does usually end up accompanying it, but usually not as an overt part of the initial sales pitch.)

vaxman 5y ago

What I actually wrote: “[Taiwan refugees] can help [USA] rebuild the infrastructure [of] Shanghai and Guangdong in Ohio Valley, Mojave/Sonora or Alaska regions” There is no suggestion that any Taiwanese citizens be forced to relocate, be confined to or even visit those spectacular areas of North America! Seriously comrade, me thinks you protest too much.

siculars 5y ago

No, no, this is about exactly right. When the CCP comes for Taiwan, the exodus will be on a scale unseen in our generation. It seems your family history has been blessed to not know this sort of existential crisis. For generations now, The US of America is, actually and literally, viewed as the land of salvation and opportunity for millions of people around the world. Do not pretend that it is not.

bllguo 5y ago
your appeal to emotion rings hollow. Did I deny that? My family viewed the US as such in the past. No longer, I can assure you. It is precisely because we have experienced life in the US and Asia that I feel that I can actually comment on this topic. If you seriously think millions of Taiwanese think this of America I would love to see your reaction when you travel there. Ohio, the Mojave, Alaska. Insulting on a whole new level, really.
- filoleg 5y ago
  > If you seriously think millions of Taiwanese think this of America I would love to see your reaction when you travel there. Whether intentionally or not, I think you are misreading the parent comment. They never claimed that this is how the Taiwanese population views the US now. They are claiming that this is how they are very likely to start viewing the US when/if CCP starts marching towards Taiwan. Those two statements are very different.
  - bllguo 5y ago
    Thanks. That's a more reasonable statement but I still stand by my main points that 1. a much, much larger contingent would stay than Americans seem to think, 2. the US is far less desirable a location now than ever, and 3. those that do come to the US will not be going to our backwaters, hell the standard of life in Taipei is arguably higher than in top American cities. I also think violent takeover is a remote hypothetical but that's another discussion.
    - filoleg 5y ago
      Absolutely. Those points you are making [regarding why you don't believe that Taiwanese people will have a heavy majority that is for escaping to the US], they are valid, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. And I don't necessarily have a strong reasoning for disagreeing with them, hence why I am perfectly ok with agreeing to disagree on those. Especially since I agree with you in premise, I just disagree on the magnitude. I fully agree with the violent takeover being a remote hypothetical though.
- Turing_Machine 5y ago
  Okay, I'll bite. Why is Alaska "insulting"? Note: I live there, and it's awesome. Ohio is also a perfectly fine place to live.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    How would you respond to being asked (forced?) to move to Ohio? Or perhaps Germany?
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
This is something we can actually measure with polling. 750 million people worldwide wanted to migrate as of 2017: https://news.gallup.com/poll/245255/750-million-worldwide-migrate.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/245255/750-million-worldwide-mi... Of those, the US is the most frequent top preferred destination, at 21% or 158 million. Gallup also publishes a Potential Net Migration Index for each country, which finds that net 17% of Taiwan would like to leave, including 25% of the youth. This data is from 2015-2017.
iszomer 5y ago
Times have changed. I've lived through that era where much of my childhood years were living under the impending threat of a takeover but over the years, I've come to realize that the path laid by the late Lee Teng-hui had been a noble and justified one. If it weren't for him and history, I would have continued to believe in the KMT (I no longer do).
dang 5y ago
Please do not take HN threads further into flamewar hell, and please keep personal attacks off of HN. Not cool. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ddoolin 5y ago

I'm inclined to agree. Half of the Taiwanese in the US live in California and the rest mostly in Texas/NY. They are a highly-educated, modern populace, they aren't going to go "building railroads in flyover country," let alone come here at all. There will be some sort of exodus that will likely be supported by the US gov't but I can't imagine it being anywhere nearing the millions mark.

fdschoeneman 5y ago

Calling someone you disagree with a racist is unhelpful.

dragonwriter 5y ago

reaperducer 5y ago

this is exactly the white savior crap that much of the world hates from the US How do you have information that he's white, or even American? I couldn't see anything like that in his profile. I read it as the voice of someone in Taiwan asking for help. And then the gall to suggest _Ohio, the Mojave, and Alaska_. Bit on the nose, don't you think? I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Can you elaborate for the rest of us? Most of your comment comes off as just anti-American sentiment, but zero actual information or discussion of the topic at hand.

fabcity 5y ago
Agreed…i didn’t see any sort of racism in the comment. I read his location choices as having more to do more with supporting a semiconductor / advanced manufacturing base - sort of an expansion of the TSMC fab being built in AZ.

lucb1e 5y ago

> this is exactly the white savior crap that much of the world hates from the US I'm the kind of person that hates this kind of crap from the US, like, interfering with foreign governments to increase their freedom is the kind of doublespeak I'm not too thrilled about. But this does seem a bit different. Here people from Taiwan are proposed to be given an evacuation route. Nobody said anything about invading and taking the whole population by force. An alternative proposal I saw mentioned is to keep Taiwan out of China's hands which seems way more invasive (and risky, like, world war type risky) by comparison. I do agree that the specific "dump them in one of our deserts" idea would not be what first comes to my mind, but ignoring the specifics for now, I'm not sure that this is how GP meant it. (And leaving completely in the middle whether this is feasible or a good idea for all the other reasons. I'm just commenting on the "provide option to get away" -> "don't do savior crap" part.)

dang 5y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell. Doing that is worse than the original offense, because if people didn't fan flames, the original provocation would simply fizzle, as it deserved. Instead, you amplified it, as well as egregiously breaking HN's rules with your own comment. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.