5 ms·

I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I can remember. I'd done PT, dry need

I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I can remember. I'd done PT, dry needling, massage, etc etc. I'd even sprung for a personal ergonomic assessment. I'm a cyclist and and keyboard jockey, so most of my waking life is spent in positions that seemed to make it worse. At times it prevented me from sleeping, doing things I enjoyed, etc. I wear a 42 jacket, so I'm not crazy wide or anything. I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.

whalesalad 5y ago
Just wanted to thank you for this comment. I have very broad shoulders but have been hacking on Apple keyboards for a few years now - the results are that I have essentially permanent internal rotation of my shoulders. This has led to not being able to breathe properly with my diaphragm, which causes all kinds of issues! I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
dwringer 5y ago
This was exactly my experience as well.
deagle50 5y ago
I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100 two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.
cma 5y ago
Where are you positioning your mouse, even farther out, or in-between the split?
- archarios 5y ago
  I put mine further out
- jamie_ca 5y ago
  I've been using a Freestyle 2 for a year+ now, 10" split, mouse sits in the middle. While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
- rangersanger 5y ago
  It depends on what I’m doing. If I’m doing a type intensive task I put it between the split and I use a track pad. Sometimes if I’m doing something mouse intensive I’ll shake it up, but that’s mostly how it stays.
johnthedebs 5y ago
Out of curiosity: where/what type of shoulder pain did you have, and what movements triggered it?
yabatopia 5y ago
Did your doctors or therapists consider Thoracic Outlet Syndrome? I've struggled with severe pain in shoulders, arms, hands and fingers for several years. It was sort of discovered by accident. They removed both of my first ribs (rib resection) and in combination with a Kinesis keyboard and a Wacom pen and tablet as a mouse replacement it's much better now. Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful. I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.
- servytor 5y ago
  What. You complained about back pain and your doctors ended up removing your first ribs?
  - yabatopia 5y ago
    I had severe pain in my fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, neck and head. Back pain came only in a later stage. For my pain in hands, arms and fingers, the root of the problem was thoracic outlet syndrome. Exercises and physical therapy didn’t help, so the only option left was a rib resection, the removal of the first rib on my left and right side. It’s better now, but unfortunately years of compression of the nerves an blood vains resulted in permanent nerve damage. Unfortunately the second rib resection caused a severe brachial plexus injury, resulting in extreme pain, weakness and the inability to use my left arm for several months. I couldn’t hold a glass of water, grap a small object or lift a pen above my shoulder. It took about 18 to 24 months of intense physical therapy to partially (80-90%) recover from that. For my neck pain the remedy was an anterior cervical discectomy and fusion, surgery to remove a degenerative disc in the neck. I still have headaches on a regular basis, occipital neuralgia to be precise, 3 or 4 times a month. Pain killers and laying down in a dim or dark room for 18 to 36 hours (in bad cases) helps. And for my back pain I’m on a steady schedule of 5 to 6 Radiofrequency Facet Joint Denervations a year, supplemented with 2 or 3 epidural infiltrations to counter radiating pain in my right leg. After 4 or 5 months the positive effects of the denervation gradually decreases. In that case I can use a medical TENS unit to treat the pain. And, of course, painkillers: the extended-release form of tramadol. And it all started with some pain or inflammation in my right wrist, easily fixable with an ergonomic mouse, keyboard or better posture, right?
hitchhiker-nz 5y ago
Split keyboard is good for shoulder pain for a number of reasons. For a start, it stops the need for hunching shoulders as the halves can be placed to fit shoulder width. This is for another split contoured keyboard, but it would help explain https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/the_ergonomic_design_of_glove80/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
srcreigh 5y ago
For my issues, the fix was 1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch) 2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems. I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.
hellol-amda 5y ago
I can attest to that. I tried microsoft ergonomic keyboards, logitech keboards but they didn't help then i found kinesis freestyle split keyboard and since then almost all the issues are gone. prior to switching to kinesis, i also switched from kwerty to dvorak, It helped but not that much. I used to have issues with my right hand due mouse usage, so i switched from right to left hand because i am right handed and unconsciously i was using it way more then my left. you do need to complement the change with upperbody stretching.
akudha 5y ago
All of this sounds great, but it is nearly 450 bucks!!! I’d like to get one, the only turnoff is the price
- rangersanger 5y ago
  Check their refurb section. I picked up a freestyle for much much less than that.
- jbenner-radham 5y ago
  The Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard is similar and costs $200. I’ve got one and it’s been great.

whalesalad 5y ago

Just wanted to thank you for this comment. I have very broad shoulders but have been hacking on Apple keyboards for a few years now - the results are that I have essentially permanent internal rotation of my shoulders. This has led to not being able to breathe properly with my diaphragm, which causes all kinds of issues! I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.

dwringer 5y ago

This was exactly my experience as well.

deagle50 5y ago

I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100 two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.

cma 5y ago

Where are you positioning your mouse, even farther out, or in-between the split?

archarios 5y ago
I put mine further out
jamie_ca 5y ago
I've been using a Freestyle 2 for a year+ now, 10" split, mouse sits in the middle. While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
rangersanger 5y ago
It depends on what I’m doing. If I’m doing a type intensive task I put it between the split and I use a track pad. Sometimes if I’m doing something mouse intensive I’ll shake it up, but that’s mostly how it stays.

johnthedebs 5y ago

Out of curiosity: where/what type of shoulder pain did you have, and what movements triggered it?

yabatopia 5y ago

Did your doctors or therapists consider Thoracic Outlet Syndrome? I've struggled with severe pain in shoulders, arms, hands and fingers for several years. It was sort of discovered by accident. They removed both of my first ribs (rib resection) and in combination with a Kinesis keyboard and a Wacom pen and tablet as a mouse replacement it's much better now. Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful. I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.

servytor 5y ago
What. You complained about back pain and your doctors ended up removing your first ribs?
- yabatopia 5y ago
  I had severe pain in my fingers, hands, arms, shoulders, neck and head. Back pain came only in a later stage. For my pain in hands, arms and fingers, the root of the problem was thoracic outlet syndrome. Exercises and physical therapy didn’t help, so the only option left was a rib resection, the removal of the first rib on my left and right side. It’s better now, but unfortunately years of compression of the nerves an blood vains resulted in permanent nerve damage. Unfortunately the second rib resection caused a severe brachial plexus injury, resulting in extreme pain, weakness and the inability to use my left arm for several months. I couldn’t hold a glass of water, grap a small object or lift a pen above my shoulder. It took about 18 to 24 months of intense physical therapy to partially (80-90%) recover from that. For my neck pain the remedy was an anterior cervical discectomy and fusion, surgery to remove a degenerative disc in the neck. I still have headaches on a regular basis, occipital neuralgia to be precise, 3 or 4 times a month. Pain killers and laying down in a dim or dark room for 18 to 36 hours (in bad cases) helps. And for my back pain I’m on a steady schedule of 5 to 6 Radiofrequency Facet Joint Denervations a year, supplemented with 2 or 3 epidural infiltrations to counter radiating pain in my right leg. After 4 or 5 months the positive effects of the denervation gradually decreases. In that case I can use a medical TENS unit to treat the pain. And, of course, painkillers: the extended-release form of tramadol. And it all started with some pain or inflammation in my right wrist, easily fixable with an ergonomic mouse, keyboard or better posture, right?

hitchhiker-nz 5y ago

Split keyboard is good for shoulder pain for a number of reasons. For a start, it stops the need for hunching shoulders as the halves can be placed to fit shoulder width. This is for another split contoured keyboard, but it would help explain https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/the_ergonomic_design_of_glove80/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...

srcreigh 5y ago

For my issues, the fix was 1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch) 2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems. I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.

hellol-amda 5y ago

I can attest to that. I tried microsoft ergonomic keyboards, logitech keboards but they didn't help then i found kinesis freestyle split keyboard and since then almost all the issues are gone. prior to switching to kinesis, i also switched from kwerty to dvorak, It helped but not that much. I used to have issues with my right hand due mouse usage, so i switched from right to left hand because i am right handed and unconsciously i was using it way more then my left. you do need to complement the change with upperbody stretching.

akudha 5y ago

All of this sounds great, but it is nearly 450 bucks!!! I’d like to get one, the only turnoff is the price

rangersanger 5y ago
Check their refurb section. I picked up a freestyle for much much less than that.
jbenner-radham 5y ago
The Matias Ergo Pro Keyboard is similar and costs $200. I’ve got one and it’s been great.