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Unless I'm reading this wrong, this is just a person's opinion, not an opinion or ruling from a government agency. Interesting, but without any legal authority.

falcolas 5y ago
Yes, these things will only shake out when someone takes Tesla to court. However the opinion of a professor of law, who is also an engineer, is not something to so easily dismiss. IMO, it means that Tesla is likely to find themselves in court.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  Right - he helped California develop their standards and was one of the coauthors for the "Level 1/2/3/4/5" SAE classification for self-driving. His opinion obviously isn't backed with the force of law, but this analysis is likely enough to get regulators to send Tesla a letter or two.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    So Tesla geofences FSD beta to outside California? Like moving their HQ to Austin? California should absolutely act if the law covers FSD, but it’s entirely realistic for Tesla to jurisdiction shop (just as credit card interest rates are mostly set by the laws of South Dakota).
    - JakeTheAndroid 5y ago
      California is one of, if not the largest EV market in the US right now. Consumers by and large don't care where a company has their HQ, but they will be upset if they don't have access to features. And this impacts people that aren't in CA that have FSD but road trip to/through CA. I can't imagine this is an ideal situation for Tesla to be in, and they'd prefer to avoid this as much as possible. There isn't a really good solution here for them. I don't see how they can jurisdiction shop in any similar way to a credit card company in this instance, these are markedly different scenarios and services provided.
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        They’ll still sell FSD, they just won’t offer the beta functionality in (or if you traverse) California due to “regulatory constraints.” They’ll continue to run FSD beta testing in 49 other states. In similar fashion, Autopilot has tighter operational constraints in parts of Europe versus the US. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-europe-restrictions-explained-video/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-europe-restriction...
        JakeTheAndroid 5y ago
        Yeah, they will still sell it but it wont sell to people living in CA which is one of the larger US markets. that's a non-trivial market to close your doors to for something like FSD. The margins on FSD have to be some of the best on the whole car. The EU regulations and standards are likely just as annoying for them, but they don't sell the same volume across the EU yet, and the regulations are a bit more consistent across the whole region. So getting a Tesla in one EU country will work the same in another. Which is just easier for a consumer. I am not saying this would end Tesla, but I can't imagine a world where they want it to come to that. I think they would look at either properly complying or some other workaround before just drawing a fence around FSD in CA.
        martythemaniak 5y ago
        I think you're a bit confused about what's going on. Autopilot, FSD and FSD Beta are all different things. Autopilot is advanced cruise control, built-in and sold everywhere with each car. FSD is a software package you can add. It can do a few things, change lanes on highways, chime when the green light comes on and you haven't moved for a few seconds, etc. You can buy FSD anywhere, but not all the features are available everywhere. Overall, it doesn't do much right now. FSD Beta is a testing program you apply to and can join if you have a good driving record and are selected. Only in the US. There's at most low-digit thousands of people who have access to this, fewer that actually use it. Article is about the last bit only. Not being able to test FSD in California only is probably a pain, but won't impact much. Allowing people to test the beta only started a few months ago.
    - mikeyouse 5y ago
      Yeah I don't know they have a good solution - but based on his analysis, more honest marketing (e.g. stop claiming things like "Drivers are only there to meet a legal requirement, the car will drive itself!") might be enough to stay on the right side of the line.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure Levels 1-5 classification far predate self-driving classifications.
- simondotau 5y ago
  It’s easy for a legal argument to appear convincing in isolation. If you haven’t heard from the other side, it’s probably appropriate to maintain some reservations, as I dare say that Tesla’s lawyers would see things differently.

falcolas 5y ago

Yes, these things will only shake out when someone takes Tesla to court. However the opinion of a professor of law, who is also an engineer, is not something to so easily dismiss. IMO, it means that Tesla is likely to find themselves in court.

mikeyouse 5y ago
Right - he helped California develop their standards and was one of the coauthors for the "Level 1/2/3/4/5" SAE classification for self-driving. His opinion obviously isn't backed with the force of law, but this analysis is likely enough to get regulators to send Tesla a letter or two.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  So Tesla geofences FSD beta to outside California? Like moving their HQ to Austin? California should absolutely act if the law covers FSD, but it’s entirely realistic for Tesla to jurisdiction shop (just as credit card interest rates are mostly set by the laws of South Dakota).
  - JakeTheAndroid 5y ago
    California is one of, if not the largest EV market in the US right now. Consumers by and large don't care where a company has their HQ, but they will be upset if they don't have access to features. And this impacts people that aren't in CA that have FSD but road trip to/through CA. I can't imagine this is an ideal situation for Tesla to be in, and they'd prefer to avoid this as much as possible. There isn't a really good solution here for them. I don't see how they can jurisdiction shop in any similar way to a credit card company in this instance, these are markedly different scenarios and services provided.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      They’ll still sell FSD, they just won’t offer the beta functionality in (or if you traverse) California due to “regulatory constraints.” They’ll continue to run FSD beta testing in 49 other states. In similar fashion, Autopilot has tighter operational constraints in parts of Europe versus the US. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-europe-restrictions-explained-video/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-europe-restriction...
      - JakeTheAndroid 5y ago
        Yeah, they will still sell it but it wont sell to people living in CA which is one of the larger US markets. that's a non-trivial market to close your doors to for something like FSD. The margins on FSD have to be some of the best on the whole car. The EU regulations and standards are likely just as annoying for them, but they don't sell the same volume across the EU yet, and the regulations are a bit more consistent across the whole region. So getting a Tesla in one EU country will work the same in another. Which is just easier for a consumer. I am not saying this would end Tesla, but I can't imagine a world where they want it to come to that. I think they would look at either properly complying or some other workaround before just drawing a fence around FSD in CA.
        martythemaniak 5y ago
        I think you're a bit confused about what's going on. Autopilot, FSD and FSD Beta are all different things. Autopilot is advanced cruise control, built-in and sold everywhere with each car. FSD is a software package you can add. It can do a few things, change lanes on highways, chime when the green light comes on and you haven't moved for a few seconds, etc. You can buy FSD anywhere, but not all the features are available everywhere. Overall, it doesn't do much right now. FSD Beta is a testing program you apply to and can join if you have a good driving record and are selected. Only in the US. There's at most low-digit thousands of people who have access to this, fewer that actually use it. Article is about the last bit only. Not being able to test FSD in California only is probably a pain, but won't impact much. Allowing people to test the beta only started a few months ago.
  - mikeyouse 5y ago
    Yeah I don't know they have a good solution - but based on his analysis, more honest marketing (e.g. stop claiming things like "Drivers are only there to meet a legal requirement, the car will drive itself!") might be enough to stay on the right side of the line.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure Levels 1-5 classification far predate self-driving classifications.
simondotau 5y ago
It’s easy for a legal argument to appear convincing in isolation. If you haven’t heard from the other side, it’s probably appropriate to maintain some reservations, as I dare say that Tesla’s lawyers would see things differently.