5 ms·

Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement. Happy to s

Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement. Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want. I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.

ksml 5y ago
Agreed. I think the lack of dedicated F-row is a dealbreaker for me, as I use the media control keys pretty often
thanhhaimai 5y ago
I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (modded QMK) for 6+ years, and I was so excited to see the headline. Then I realized there is no Fn row. :( It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version later.
- hitchhiker-nz 5y ago
  Perhaps you can check out this one with F keys and ZMK. https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/the_ergonomic_design_of_glove80/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
donatj 5y ago
For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit without moving your entire hand. I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row. That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  Personally I would not get a smaller (fewer keys) keyboard if that meant giving up keys like the F1 to F12 keys. I’m fine with having that home row option via layers and Vim and whatnot, but not having normal keys is just a downgrade in my opinion. Some applications want to use funky key combos, and I don’t want to make contortions in order to use them; the key combos might be uncomfortable enough on a regular keyboard where you don’t have to use some “F” key to access something basic like the arrow keys or “Home”. On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.) I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.
simonsaysso 5y ago
I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able to move keys closer to your fingers. That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
  - dr_kiszonka 5y ago
    They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the pedals have?
    - foxfluff 5y ago
      IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years and am now using a planck and also building my own split keyboard to replace the planck with something more ergonomic).
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- jmarcher 5y ago
  My concern with this keyboard and others without F keys would be how awkward some IntelliJ keyboard shortcuts would be e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are much worse offenders I am sure.
gorbachev 5y ago
I use 65% keyboards almost exclusively these days. No numpad, pgdn/up/home/end cluster or function key row. Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1 for F1). You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second nature in less than a week. It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.
- fomine3 5y ago
  It's good to reduce keyboard width because we need to put pointing device somewhere near. But reducing height isn't sense for me because vertical space isn't matter at all. I don't strongly need F1-12 keys but prefer to have because nothing is harmed by having dedicated keys.
sulam 5y ago
If you haven’t, you really should check out the Moonlander that’s referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn’t be happier.
- db65edfc7996 5y ago
  The Moonlander is also missing F-keys? People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    Keyboard people are a bit too enthusiastic about cutting out a few dozen keys only to add them back in layers.
    - rgoulter 5y ago
      Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys? The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard. It seems reasonable either way to prefer one or the other. -- I suspect that most of the people enthusiastic about the smaller keyboard layouts are also into keyboard-driven workflows, and are developers who also frequently need to use the symbols accessed using layers.
      - avgcorrection 5y ago
        > Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys? I could imagine that some people never use the function keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller keyboard understandable. Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :) > The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard. The trade-offs seem a bit one-sided. Hand movements are not a big deal unless you are going constantly back and forth between the main part and the nav cluster or the numpad. And all of these custom keyboards with their 60%, 67.5%, etc. sizes are already so… boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.
alasdair_ 5y ago
>Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement. Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely). Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
dlgeek 5y ago
Under specs: > Function Keys reside in new “Fn” Layer > 10-Key resides in the traditional “Keypad” Layer

ksml 5y ago

Agreed. I think the lack of dedicated F-row is a dealbreaker for me, as I use the media control keys pretty often

thanhhaimai 5y ago

I've been using the Kinesis Advantage (modded QMK) for 6+ years, and I was so excited to see the headline. Then I realized there is no Fn row. :( It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version later.

hitchhiker-nz 5y ago
Perhaps you can check out this one with F keys and ZMK. https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/the_ergonomic_design_of_glove80/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...

donatj 5y ago

For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit without moving your entire hand. I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row. That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.

avgcorrection 5y ago
Personally I would not get a smaller (fewer keys) keyboard if that meant giving up keys like the F1 to F12 keys. I’m fine with having that home row option via layers and Vim and whatnot, but not having normal keys is just a downgrade in my opinion. Some applications want to use funky key combos, and I don’t want to make contortions in order to use them; the key combos might be uncomfortable enough on a regular keyboard where you don’t have to use some “F” key to access something basic like the arrow keys or “Home”. On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.) I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.

simonsaysso 5y ago

I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able to move keys closer to your fingers. That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
> I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
- dr_kiszonka 5y ago
  They also sell pedals, which, I guess, you could use to switch layers. I am thinking about using pedals to switch to the arrow keys layer. I wonder what other uses the pedals have?
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    IME the pedal is even more clumsy than pressing two keys to switch layers (I've had an advantage pro for ~15 years and am now using a planck and also building my own split keyboard to replace the planck with something more ergonomic).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
jmarcher 5y ago
My concern with this keyboard and others without F keys would be how awkward some IntelliJ keyboard shortcuts would be e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are much worse offenders I am sure.

gorbachev 5y ago

I use 65% keyboards almost exclusively these days. No numpad, pgdn/up/home/end cluster or function key row. Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1 for F1). You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second nature in less than a week. It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.

fomine3 5y ago
It's good to reduce keyboard width because we need to put pointing device somewhere near. But reducing height isn't sense for me because vertical space isn't matter at all. I don't strongly need F1-12 keys but prefer to have because nothing is harmed by having dedicated keys.

sulam 5y ago

If you haven’t, you really should check out the Moonlander that’s referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn’t be happier.

db65edfc7996 5y ago
The Moonlander is also missing F-keys? People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  Keyboard people are a bit too enthusiastic about cutting out a few dozen keys only to add them back in layers.
  - rgoulter 5y ago
    Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys? The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard. It seems reasonable either way to prefer one or the other. -- I suspect that most of the people enthusiastic about the smaller keyboard layouts are also into keyboard-driven workflows, and are developers who also frequently need to use the symbols accessed using layers.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      > Surely you don't expect people using keyboards without dedicated function keys (or number rows) are aiming to never need to use those keys? I could imagine that some people never use the function keys. Or never use the numpad keys. To some people they might be completely useless... Which would make a smaller keyboard understandable. Now, people who do need all those keys and yet still go for a smaller keyboard is harder for me to understand. :) > The trade-off from fewer keys is reduced hand movement (& a smaller keyboard, cheaper to buy switches for, etc.), at the cost of additional complexity of use, & it not really being easy for anyone else to use your keyboard. The trade-offs seem a bit one-sided. Hand movements are not a big deal unless you are going constantly back and forth between the main part and the nav cluster or the numpad. And all of these custom keyboards with their 60%, 67.5%, etc. sizes are already so… boutique and expensive that I don’t think that people are forfeiting a dozen or so keys in order to save some money.

alasdair_ 5y ago

>Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement. Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely). Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.

dlgeek 5y ago

Under specs: > Function Keys reside in new “Fn” Layer > 10-Key resides in the traditional “Keypad” Layer