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I think it more depends on how you fall on the authoritarian/libertarian spectrum. As a libertarian myself, I certainly feel that my views are not welcome. I ha

I think it more depends on how you fall on the authoritarian/libertarian spectrum. As a libertarian myself, I certainly feel that my views are not welcome. I have often been accused of being a horrible person for holding a belief in what is essentially tolerance of intolerance, and voluntary cooperation.

Zigurd 5y ago
I am estranged from libertarianism. Too many people self-assigning that label are against women's rights, voting rights, and are comfortable with the dictator in Russia. And this is before one gets to issues like Pareto optimal policies entrenching existing disadvantages.
- thegrimmest 5y ago
  Have you become attracted to authoritarianism then? I'd be very curious as to why. I'm very much pro women's and voting rights, and am under no illusion that Russia is somehow a liberal place. If you're referring to abortion, I think the main disagreement between sensible people is the point at which a group of cells becomes a child, deserving of protection? And whose responsibility is that child? My answers are at conception, and whoever is currently in custody (the mother, before birth); simply because I don't see an alternative that isn't highly arbitrary or subjective. In regard to voting rights, democracy is clearly better than the other things we've tried. I just don't think the people we elect should have quite so much power. Their remit should be limited to the administration of peace and order, not binding us all into one cooperative working towards a common goal. Society is about peaceful coexistence, not collectivizing the realities of misfortune or inadequacy. Most basically, I think anyone who is drawn to the idea of forcing people to cooperate is taking a moral stance that I simply cannot follow. In the absence of an oracle to divine good from evil, I can't come up with a justification, save one, for using force to compel cooperation. Doing so is indistinguishable from a degree of slavery.
  - Zigurd 5y ago
    This "the idea of forcing people to cooperate is taking a moral stance that I simply cannot follow" is why libertarianism, especially recently, is naive and counterproductive.
    - thegrimmest 5y ago
      Would you care to elaborate as to why? Is productivity or Pareto optimization universally more important than agency? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Zigurd 5y ago

I am estranged from libertarianism. Too many people self-assigning that label are against women's rights, voting rights, and are comfortable with the dictator in Russia. And this is before one gets to issues like Pareto optimal policies entrenching existing disadvantages.

thegrimmest 5y ago
Have you become attracted to authoritarianism then? I'd be very curious as to why. I'm very much pro women's and voting rights, and am under no illusion that Russia is somehow a liberal place. If you're referring to abortion, I think the main disagreement between sensible people is the point at which a group of cells becomes a child, deserving of protection? And whose responsibility is that child? My answers are at conception, and whoever is currently in custody (the mother, before birth); simply because I don't see an alternative that isn't highly arbitrary or subjective. In regard to voting rights, democracy is clearly better than the other things we've tried. I just don't think the people we elect should have quite so much power. Their remit should be limited to the administration of peace and order, not binding us all into one cooperative working towards a common goal. Society is about peaceful coexistence, not collectivizing the realities of misfortune or inadequacy. Most basically, I think anyone who is drawn to the idea of forcing people to cooperate is taking a moral stance that I simply cannot follow. In the absence of an oracle to divine good from evil, I can't come up with a justification, save one, for using force to compel cooperation. Doing so is indistinguishable from a degree of slavery.
- Zigurd 5y ago
  This "the idea of forcing people to cooperate is taking a moral stance that I simply cannot follow" is why libertarianism, especially recently, is naive and counterproductive.
  - thegrimmest 5y ago
    Would you care to elaborate as to why? Is productivity or Pareto optimization universally more important than agency? How did you arrive at this conclusion?