6 ms·

It's interesting how American/Canadian English uses the singular for groups of people, while British English uses the plural: "Apple helps Asahi Linux" (Americ

It's interesting how American/Canadian English uses the singular for groups of people, while British English uses the plural: "Apple helps Asahi Linux" (American). "Apple help Asahi Linux" (British), as if there's a "people" after Apple.

azinman2 5y ago
That seems odd to me (as an American) because Apple is not plural, and often times when it is a group of people by identity you do use the plural for them (eg Americans help Asahi Linux). Would British folks say “England help Asahi Linux” as well?
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Yes, I believe that would be correct. Apple is plural in the sense that it is made up of multiple people acting in unison. Same as "My family are visiting over Christmas." However, the word Americans is not a group of people in the same sense that USA, England, Apple, or family is. Its kind of like the distinction between people and persons. Edit: the term for words like family is "collective noun". More at https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family-is-or-the-family-are/ https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family...
- handelaar 5y ago
  No, they would not. Don't mistake erroneous colloquial speech for what's "correct" in written English. This is wrong, and so is the original example.
nopenopenopeno 5y ago
Another American here. I never knew this. How common is this? Have I just assumed it’s a typo every time I see it? Or has (have?) the British media just become more Americanized like most places?
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  I am Canadian myself and generally follow the American style, but I believe it is very common, though not universal. Scanning The Guardian, they (!) seem to follow the American style, though this paragraph popped out at me where they use both: > Labour [singular] takes comfort partly from the fact it expended little effort or money on the seat, allowing the Lib Dems [plural] to declare themselves in the best position to challenge the Tories. But an American publication would probably write the same, because the name Lib Dems is itself pluralized.
  - Smaug123 5y ago
    "Labour" is a party name, and it is singular. "Liberal Democrats" is a party name, and it is plural. The verb is agreeing with the number of the noun, just as is usual in English.
sockbot 5y ago
It's not that American English uses singular for groups of people. It's that American English sees Apple as a singular corporate entity. British English peers past the corporate veil to see the singular corporation as it's underlying people.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  American English generally uses singular for collective nouns. British English generally uses plural. There are exceptions (such as if the name itself is pluralised), but that's the general rule. Whether its "peering past the corporate veil" or not is neither here nor there, as they treat all collective nouns this way.
- handelaar 5y ago
  No. Singular nouns require singular verbs, in both countries.
  - ninkendo 5y ago
    Sure, but there is some disagreement across the pond on which nouns are singular. Brits would be more likely to say “Led Zeppelin are on stage”, while Americans would prefer “Led Zeppelin is on stage”, and the reason is the disagreement between whether Led Zeppelin is singular (one band) or plural (4 people constituting the band.)
  - hackmiester 5y ago
    I wish you could provide some more details or substance so that I might know why your experiences contradict mine.
handelaar 5y ago
As someone who has worked as a sub (copy-editor) in the UK for many years in the past I cannot begin to describe exactly how completely incorrect this is.
- badtoro 5y ago
  British or American version?
- tomComb 5y ago
  If you are going to write something like that you really should explain.
  - nathancahill 5y ago
    Well he said he can't begin to describe...
- spacedcowboy 5y ago
  Have to agree - as a Brit, using 'help' there is just ... wrong
  - toyg 5y ago
    Not really. It's absolutely normal to see, for example, sports clubs and teams used as plural noun in the UK press; hence by extension it cann be used for any org. I know because it's a big gotcha for us Europeans, who tend to use the singular there.
Ar-Curunir 5y ago
I don't think that's the case; British English would say "X help Y" when X is a collective noun referring explicitly to a group of people, eg a football team ("Manchester United have scored"), or a band ("Radiohead are playing a concert today"). This means that "Spain (the country) is ..." but "Spain (the football team) are ...". See here for details: https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular-or-plural/ https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular...
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  That's more or less what I said, except a lot more nuanced.

azinman2 5y ago

That seems odd to me (as an American) because Apple is not plural, and often times when it is a group of people by identity you do use the plural for them (eg Americans help Asahi Linux). Would British folks say “England help Asahi Linux” as well?

frosted-flakes 5y ago
Yes, I believe that would be correct. Apple is plural in the sense that it is made up of multiple people acting in unison. Same as "My family are visiting over Christmas." However, the word Americans is not a group of people in the same sense that USA, England, Apple, or family is. Its kind of like the distinction between people and persons. Edit: the term for words like family is "collective noun". More at https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family-is-or-the-family-are/ https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family...
handelaar 5y ago
No, they would not. Don't mistake erroneous colloquial speech for what's "correct" in written English. This is wrong, and so is the original example.

nopenopenopeno 5y ago

Another American here. I never knew this. How common is this? Have I just assumed it’s a typo every time I see it? Or has (have?) the British media just become more Americanized like most places?

frosted-flakes 5y ago
I am Canadian myself and generally follow the American style, but I believe it is very common, though not universal. Scanning The Guardian, they (!) seem to follow the American style, though this paragraph popped out at me where they use both: > Labour [singular] takes comfort partly from the fact it expended little effort or money on the seat, allowing the Lib Dems [plural] to declare themselves in the best position to challenge the Tories. But an American publication would probably write the same, because the name Lib Dems is itself pluralized.
- Smaug123 5y ago
  "Labour" is a party name, and it is singular. "Liberal Democrats" is a party name, and it is plural. The verb is agreeing with the number of the noun, just as is usual in English.

sockbot 5y ago

It's not that American English uses singular for groups of people. It's that American English sees Apple as a singular corporate entity. British English peers past the corporate veil to see the singular corporation as it's underlying people.

frosted-flakes 5y ago
American English generally uses singular for collective nouns. British English generally uses plural. There are exceptions (such as if the name itself is pluralised), but that's the general rule. Whether its "peering past the corporate veil" or not is neither here nor there, as they treat all collective nouns this way.
handelaar 5y ago
No. Singular nouns require singular verbs, in both countries.
- ninkendo 5y ago
  Sure, but there is some disagreement across the pond on which nouns are singular. Brits would be more likely to say “Led Zeppelin are on stage”, while Americans would prefer “Led Zeppelin is on stage”, and the reason is the disagreement between whether Led Zeppelin is singular (one band) or plural (4 people constituting the band.)
- hackmiester 5y ago
  I wish you could provide some more details or substance so that I might know why your experiences contradict mine.

handelaar 5y ago

As someone who has worked as a sub (copy-editor) in the UK for many years in the past I cannot begin to describe exactly how completely incorrect this is.

badtoro 5y ago
British or American version?
tomComb 5y ago
If you are going to write something like that you really should explain.
- nathancahill 5y ago
  Well he said he can't begin to describe...
spacedcowboy 5y ago
Have to agree - as a Brit, using 'help' there is just ... wrong
- toyg 5y ago
  Not really. It's absolutely normal to see, for example, sports clubs and teams used as plural noun in the UK press; hence by extension it cann be used for any org. I know because it's a big gotcha for us Europeans, who tend to use the singular there.

Ar-Curunir 5y ago

I don't think that's the case; British English would say "X help Y" when X is a collective noun referring explicitly to a group of people, eg a football team ("Manchester United have scored"), or a band ("Radiohead are playing a concert today"). This means that "Spain (the country) is ..." but "Spain (the football team) are ...". See here for details: https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular-or-plural/ https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular...

frosted-flakes 5y ago
That's more or less what I said, except a lot more nuanced.