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It seems like society is hard-wired to create an aristocracy, one way or another. We tried using merit instead of nepotism for a while but I guess the pressure

It seems like society is hard-wired to create an aristocracy, one way or another. We tried using merit instead of nepotism for a while but I guess the pressure from "elite" parents with idiot children was too great. Human society, at least in the west, is reverting back to the old ways of doing things.

reducesuffering 5y ago
Plato's Republic still relevant 2,400 years later: "...the earth, as being their mother, delivered them, and now, as if their land were their mother and their nurse, they ought to take thought for her and defend her against any attack and regard the other citizens as their brothers and children of the self-same earth...While all of you, in the city, are brothers, we will say in our tale, yet god, in fashioning those of you who are fitted to hold rule, mingled gold in their generation, for which reason they are the most precious—but in the helpers, silver, and iron and brass in the farmers and other craftsmen. And, as you are all akin, though, for the most part, you will breed after your kinds, it may sometimes happen that a golden father would beget a silver son, and that a golden offspring would come from a silver sire, and that the rest would, in like manner, be born of one another. So that the first and chief injunction that the god lays upon the rulers is that of nothing else are they to be such careful guardians, and so intently observant as of the intermixture of these metals in the souls of their offspring, and if sons are born to them with an infusion of brass or iron they shall by no means give way to pity in their treatment of them, but shall assign to each the status due to his nature and thrust them out among the artisans or the farmers. And again, if from these there is born a son with unexpected gold or silver in his composition they shall honor such and bid them go up higher, some to the office of guardian, some to the assistanceship, alleging that there is an oracle that the city shall then be overthrown when the man of iron or brass is its guardian." Socrates proposes and claims that if the people believed "this myth...[it] would have a good effect, making them more inclined to care for the state and one another." This is his noble lie: "a contrivance for one of those falsehoods that come into being in case of need, of which we were just now talking, some noble one..."
- AlexanderTheGr8 5y ago
  This was pretty interesting, although I am having a hard time understanding some of that english. Are there any interesting works of Plato-Socrates that a philosophy newcomer can understand? (Especially something translated to modern English, or with a modern English explanation.)
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    Essentially Plato is saying there is a concept of a "Noble Lie" that while untrue, could be told to society that results in a net improvement. His example is telling society that each person is imbued with the talent of Gold, Silver, and Bronze. The lie is that if people don't have the proper talent (soul) in each position, then their society will be overthrown. (eventually true but not as direct as told) So Silver people will be ensured their Gold children will do important Gold positions, and Gold people will be ensured their Bronze children will need to do manual labor, etc. Yes there are, usually in the shorter plays. The Republic is famously dense and takes effort to read. Here is a good overview of Plato's writings and which are recommended: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/a-platonic-reading-order/ https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/a-platonic-r... Also if it's highly rated on Goodreads, it probably has popular appeal translating to ease of reading: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/879.Plato https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/879.Plato Stanford's philosophy library will help with explanations: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-shorter/#11 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-shorter/#11 TL;DR: Apology Symposium Phaedo

reducesuffering 5y ago

Plato's Republic still relevant 2,400 years later: "...the earth, as being their mother, delivered them, and now, as if their land were their mother and their nurse, they ought to take thought for her and defend her against any attack and regard the other citizens as their brothers and children of the self-same earth...While all of you, in the city, are brothers, we will say in our tale, yet god, in fashioning those of you who are fitted to hold rule, mingled gold in their generation, for which reason they are the most precious—but in the helpers, silver, and iron and brass in the farmers and other craftsmen. And, as you are all akin, though, for the most part, you will breed after your kinds, it may sometimes happen that a golden father would beget a silver son, and that a golden offspring would come from a silver sire, and that the rest would, in like manner, be born of one another. So that the first and chief injunction that the god lays upon the rulers is that of nothing else are they to be such careful guardians, and so intently observant as of the intermixture of these metals in the souls of their offspring, and if sons are born to them with an infusion of brass or iron they shall by no means give way to pity in their treatment of them, but shall assign to each the status due to his nature and thrust them out among the artisans or the farmers. And again, if from these there is born a son with unexpected gold or silver in his composition they shall honor such and bid them go up higher, some to the office of guardian, some to the assistanceship, alleging that there is an oracle that the city shall then be overthrown when the man of iron or brass is its guardian." Socrates proposes and claims that if the people believed "this myth...[it] would have a good effect, making them more inclined to care for the state and one another." This is his noble lie: "a contrivance for one of those falsehoods that come into being in case of need, of which we were just now talking, some noble one..."

AlexanderTheGr8 5y ago
This was pretty interesting, although I am having a hard time understanding some of that english. Are there any interesting works of Plato-Socrates that a philosophy newcomer can understand? (Especially something translated to modern English, or with a modern English explanation.)
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  Essentially Plato is saying there is a concept of a "Noble Lie" that while untrue, could be told to society that results in a net improvement. His example is telling society that each person is imbued with the talent of Gold, Silver, and Bronze. The lie is that if people don't have the proper talent (soul) in each position, then their society will be overthrown. (eventually true but not as direct as told) So Silver people will be ensured their Gold children will do important Gold positions, and Gold people will be ensured their Bronze children will need to do manual labor, etc. Yes there are, usually in the shorter plays. The Republic is famously dense and takes effort to read. Here is a good overview of Plato's writings and which are recommended: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/a-platonic-reading-order/ https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/08/18/a-platonic-r... Also if it's highly rated on Goodreads, it probably has popular appeal translating to ease of reading: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/879.Plato https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/879.Plato Stanford's philosophy library will help with explanations: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-shorter/#11 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-ethics-shorter/#11 TL;DR: Apology Symposium Phaedo