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If by 'undemocratic' you mean autocratic, it isn't proponents of democracy that are stripping them of agency. It is their form of government. However, understa

If by 'undemocratic' you mean autocratic, it isn't proponents of democracy that are stripping them of agency. It is their form of government. However, understanding the pro's and con's of any type of government, including autocracies, is a worthy pursuit. We can learn something from anyone.

tshaddox 5y ago
> If by 'undemocratic' you mean autocratic, it isn't proponents of democracy that are stripping them of agency. It is their form of government. But you would need to show that they are actually being stripped of their agency. You can't just say "I declare that their government doesn't represent their preferences, and when they say that the government actually does represent their preferences, that's because they can't think for themselves." Having different preferences than you is not sufficient evidence of brainwashing. That's pretty circular, and you could just as easily say "Western democracy is bad, and anyone who lives in a Western democracy who says they like it is just brainwashed."
- Nevermark 5y ago
  If a government severely punishes debate about its behavior or views it wants accepted and unchallenged, or has a system in place to eliminate information in the public sphere that it does not want you to encounter, through technology and overwhelming pressure on organizations and individuals, ... ... that's all you need to know. That is a situation designed precisely to stay in power despite not responding to a freely informed public's preferences. If an autocratic leader actually asked its citizens for their preferences on whether the autocrat should stay in power, and abided by the result - it would not be an autocracy.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    We’re talking about the form of government though, not specific acts of censorship about specific government actions. Those are definitely bad! But I don’t think there are secrets about the form of government of, say, China, and how it is similar and different than, say, the United States.

tshaddox 5y ago

> If by 'undemocratic' you mean autocratic, it isn't proponents of democracy that are stripping them of agency. It is their form of government. But you would need to show that they are actually being stripped of their agency. You can't just say "I declare that their government doesn't represent their preferences, and when they say that the government actually does represent their preferences, that's because they can't think for themselves." Having different preferences than you is not sufficient evidence of brainwashing. That's pretty circular, and you could just as easily say "Western democracy is bad, and anyone who lives in a Western democracy who says they like it is just brainwashed."

Nevermark 5y ago
If a government severely punishes debate about its behavior or views it wants accepted and unchallenged, or has a system in place to eliminate information in the public sphere that it does not want you to encounter, through technology and overwhelming pressure on organizations and individuals, ... ... that's all you need to know. That is a situation designed precisely to stay in power despite not responding to a freely informed public's preferences. If an autocratic leader actually asked its citizens for their preferences on whether the autocrat should stay in power, and abided by the result - it would not be an autocracy.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  We’re talking about the form of government though, not specific acts of censorship about specific government actions. Those are definitely bad! But I don’t think there are secrets about the form of government of, say, China, and how it is similar and different than, say, the United States.