4 ms·

The other side of this to remember is that highly compensated employees are still subjects to this reality. The numbers themselves dont actually matter. It doe

The other side of this to remember is that highly compensated employees are still subjects to this reality. The numbers themselves dont actually matter. It doesnt matter if highly compensated to you means $88k or $150k annual compensation, $450k or $750k. If a single earner cant buy a home outright in 5 years in that area, then the compensation isn't high enough compared to when wages were keeping up. There was a housing shortage in the 1970s too, so the supply side isnt a worthwhile deflection. The oppression contest and olympics from the masses earning way less isn't really useful because that just conveniently perpetuates the reality.

whimsicalism 5y ago
> There was a housing shortage in the 1970s too, so the supply side isnt a worthwhile deflection. Uh, source on the housing shortage in the 1970s being even remotely close to this level? Because, yeah, demand outstripping the heck out of supply is the "deflection" I'd pick.
- vmception 5y ago
  Regardless, landlords set the price. They always had the opportunity to post ridiculous prices, and they bring them to the price people accept. They dont have to go to the edge of what someone would accept. But they do. The same tech worker (or whoever a local municipality happens to be pointing fingers at) would pay $1200/mo in one area, or $7500/mo in the other area. A wealthy class of people have always existed that can pay rent or mortgage or own at pretty much any price. The landlords are the greedy ones - the neighbors and corporations that were already there for the most part. I’m not arguing for anything (in case someone mistakes this for a rent control argument), just have been in enough cities to hear it all.
  - xapata 5y ago
    Landlords are price takers, not price makers. The market for apartments is highly competitive.
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      If that was true, apartment pricing would be flat or even trending down, as landlords would compete on price. But they don't. Instead, landlords fight against the construction against additional housing so they can limit supply and increase prices. I had a 900 sq foot, 2br, 1 bath apartment in the suburbs in 2012 that was $800/month. Each annual lease renewal was a higher price. When I moved out in 2015, the price was $950 at the time. If I had renewed, it would have been $1,100/month. That apartment now is $1,500/month. In less than 10 years, that apartment has doubled in cost. Rising prices do not indicate a competitive market.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        Rising prices have nothing to do with whether it is a competitive market. I agree with most of the rest of your comment, but none of that means that the landlords are price setters. Nor does it show that discussing supply is a "deflection."
        vmception 5y ago
        Supply and demand is a factor. You can talk about it. It is not a unique enough factor to this time period. I feel like you wanted someone to acknowledge that. Perhaps property sales and rentals should require attestations about who offered what price and we can use that data to consider deterrents or levies on those who moved the price up from the prior owner or tenant. Sure there are some prospective occupants that will say a higher price just to skip the queue, I dont think they are really the majority of people even when well funded transplants descend upon a town. I think the majority just take whatever the landlord offers.
        xapata 5y ago
        > I think the majority just take whatever the landlord offers. Taking the price offered for a particular property is not the same as ignoring prices. Apartment shoppers search for the combination of quality and price that best satisfies their preferences. I have a hard time imagining an alternative. Would that be going to an apartment search engine and simply picking the first result, regardless of quality and price? When I go to the grocery store, I don't negotiate with the cashier. That doesn't mean grocery stores aren't competing with each other.
- bumby 5y ago
  [1] is a bit noisy because it's monthly data, but if you give it a 12-month moving average, it definitely seems like housing availability was substantially above current levels from about 1973-1992. I'm curious if there are any theories besides wage stagnation that caused that change? [1]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSACSR https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSACSR
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Hm. I'm not sure that is actually really measuring supply so much as liquidity.

whimsicalism 5y ago

> There was a housing shortage in the 1970s too, so the supply side isnt a worthwhile deflection. Uh, source on the housing shortage in the 1970s being even remotely close to this level? Because, yeah, demand outstripping the heck out of supply is the "deflection" I'd pick.

vmception 5y ago
Regardless, landlords set the price. They always had the opportunity to post ridiculous prices, and they bring them to the price people accept. They dont have to go to the edge of what someone would accept. But they do. The same tech worker (or whoever a local municipality happens to be pointing fingers at) would pay $1200/mo in one area, or $7500/mo in the other area. A wealthy class of people have always existed that can pay rent or mortgage or own at pretty much any price. The landlords are the greedy ones - the neighbors and corporations that were already there for the most part. I’m not arguing for anything (in case someone mistakes this for a rent control argument), just have been in enough cities to hear it all.
- xapata 5y ago
  Landlords are price takers, not price makers. The market for apartments is highly competitive.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    If that was true, apartment pricing would be flat or even trending down, as landlords would compete on price. But they don't. Instead, landlords fight against the construction against additional housing so they can limit supply and increase prices. I had a 900 sq foot, 2br, 1 bath apartment in the suburbs in 2012 that was $800/month. Each annual lease renewal was a higher price. When I moved out in 2015, the price was $950 at the time. If I had renewed, it would have been $1,100/month. That apartment now is $1,500/month. In less than 10 years, that apartment has doubled in cost. Rising prices do not indicate a competitive market.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Rising prices have nothing to do with whether it is a competitive market. I agree with most of the rest of your comment, but none of that means that the landlords are price setters. Nor does it show that discussing supply is a "deflection."
      - vmception 5y ago
        Supply and demand is a factor. You can talk about it. It is not a unique enough factor to this time period. I feel like you wanted someone to acknowledge that. Perhaps property sales and rentals should require attestations about who offered what price and we can use that data to consider deterrents or levies on those who moved the price up from the prior owner or tenant. Sure there are some prospective occupants that will say a higher price just to skip the queue, I dont think they are really the majority of people even when well funded transplants descend upon a town. I think the majority just take whatever the landlord offers.
        xapata 5y ago
        > I think the majority just take whatever the landlord offers. Taking the price offered for a particular property is not the same as ignoring prices. Apartment shoppers search for the combination of quality and price that best satisfies their preferences. I have a hard time imagining an alternative. Would that be going to an apartment search engine and simply picking the first result, regardless of quality and price? When I go to the grocery store, I don't negotiate with the cashier. That doesn't mean grocery stores aren't competing with each other.
bumby 5y ago
[1] is a bit noisy because it's monthly data, but if you give it a 12-month moving average, it definitely seems like housing availability was substantially above current levels from about 1973-1992. I'm curious if there are any theories besides wage stagnation that caused that change? [1]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSACSR https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSACSR
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Hm. I'm not sure that is actually really measuring supply so much as liquidity.