4 ms·

Yep, there seems to be this tendency to evaluate all the actions of all the people inside a company as a single coherent whole, expecting there to be single coh

by m12k 5y ago

Yep, there seems to be this tendency to evaluate all the actions of all the people inside a company as a single coherent whole, expecting there to be single coherent thread running through it all. It's almost like people think of the company as a single person - a kind of anthropomorphization maybe. Companies may strive for alignment, but they're not the Borg, and they certainly don't have the capacity to micromanage every single decision for every single employee.

frosted-flakes 5y ago
It's interesting how American/Canadian English uses the singular for groups of people, while British English uses the plural: "Apple helps Asahi Linux" (American). "Apple help Asahi Linux" (British), as if there's a "people" after Apple.
- azinman2 5y ago
  That seems odd to me (as an American) because Apple is not plural, and often times when it is a group of people by identity you do use the plural for them (eg Americans help Asahi Linux). Would British folks say “England help Asahi Linux” as well?
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    Yes, I believe that would be correct. Apple is plural in the sense that it is made up of multiple people acting in unison. Same as "My family are visiting over Christmas." However, the word Americans is not a group of people in the same sense that USA, England, Apple, or family is. Its kind of like the distinction between people and persons. Edit: the term for words like family is "collective noun". More at https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family-is-or-the-family-are/ https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family...
  - handelaar 5y ago
    No, they would not. Don't mistake erroneous colloquial speech for what's "correct" in written English. This is wrong, and so is the original example.
- nopenopenopeno 5y ago
  Another American here. I never knew this. How common is this? Have I just assumed it’s a typo every time I see it? Or has (have?) the British media just become more Americanized like most places?
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    I am Canadian myself and generally follow the American style, but I believe it is very common, though not universal. Scanning The Guardian, they (!) seem to follow the American style, though this paragraph popped out at me where they use both: > Labour [singular] takes comfort partly from the fact it expended little effort or money on the seat, allowing the Lib Dems [plural] to declare themselves in the best position to challenge the Tories. But an American publication would probably write the same, because the name Lib Dems is itself pluralized.
    - Smaug123 5y ago
      "Labour" is a party name, and it is singular. "Liberal Democrats" is a party name, and it is plural. The verb is agreeing with the number of the noun, just as is usual in English.
- sockbot 5y ago
  It's not that American English uses singular for groups of people. It's that American English sees Apple as a singular corporate entity. British English peers past the corporate veil to see the singular corporation as it's underlying people.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    American English generally uses singular for collective nouns. British English generally uses plural. There are exceptions (such as if the name itself is pluralised), but that's the general rule. Whether its "peering past the corporate veil" or not is neither here nor there, as they treat all collective nouns this way.
  - handelaar 5y ago
    No. Singular nouns require singular verbs, in both countries.
    - ninkendo 5y ago
      Sure, but there is some disagreement across the pond on which nouns are singular. Brits would be more likely to say “Led Zeppelin are on stage”, while Americans would prefer “Led Zeppelin is on stage”, and the reason is the disagreement between whether Led Zeppelin is singular (one band) or plural (4 people constituting the band.)
    - hackmiester 5y ago
      I wish you could provide some more details or substance so that I might know why your experiences contradict mine.
- handelaar 5y ago
  As someone who has worked as a sub (copy-editor) in the UK for many years in the past I cannot begin to describe exactly how completely incorrect this is.
  - badtoro 5y ago
    British or American version?
  - tomComb 5y ago
    If you are going to write something like that you really should explain.
    - nathancahill 5y ago
      Well he said he can't begin to describe...
  - spacedcowboy 5y ago
    Have to agree - as a Brit, using 'help' there is just ... wrong
    - toyg 5y ago
      Not really. It's absolutely normal to see, for example, sports clubs and teams used as plural noun in the UK press; hence by extension it cann be used for any org. I know because it's a big gotcha for us Europeans, who tend to use the singular there.
- Ar-Curunir 5y ago
  I don't think that's the case; British English would say "X help Y" when X is a collective noun referring explicitly to a group of people, eg a football team ("Manchester United have scored"), or a band ("Radiohead are playing a concert today"). This means that "Spain (the country) is ..." but "Spain (the football team) are ...". See here for details: https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular-or-plural/ https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular...
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    That's more or less what I said, except a lot more nuanced.
travisgriggs 5y ago
Is that because whatever company we work for ourselves, those in charge tend to push that narrative so much? We get constantly bombarded by our own employers with messages of unity and vision statements and the business plan and the message etcetera. So even when we pause and think about our own experiences and we realize how many varied voices and agendas there are within, we’re conditioned when referring to a brand employer like Apple to reduce them to a single point of view.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  we’re conditioned when referring to a brand employer like Apple to reduce them to a single point of view. Maybe? Americans also tend to be individualistic (often to a fault, many would say)so I'm not sure there's a cultural significance at work here. It's probably informative that British English tends to refer to most (all?) collective nouns this way. It's not some corporation-specific thing. Sports teams are the most obvious example - a Brit would say "Team A have defeated Team B" rather than "Team A has defeated Team B."

by m12k 5y ago

frosted-flakes 5y ago

It's interesting how American/Canadian English uses the singular for groups of people, while British English uses the plural: "Apple helps Asahi Linux" (American). "Apple help Asahi Linux" (British), as if there's a "people" after Apple.

azinman2 5y ago
That seems odd to me (as an American) because Apple is not plural, and often times when it is a group of people by identity you do use the plural for them (eg Americans help Asahi Linux). Would British folks say “England help Asahi Linux” as well?
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Yes, I believe that would be correct. Apple is plural in the sense that it is made up of multiple people acting in unison. Same as "My family are visiting over Christmas." However, the word Americans is not a group of people in the same sense that USA, England, Apple, or family is. Its kind of like the distinction between people and persons. Edit: the term for words like family is "collective noun". More at https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family-is-or-the-family-are/ https://blog.harwardcommunications.com/2017/02/07/the-family...
- handelaar 5y ago
  No, they would not. Don't mistake erroneous colloquial speech for what's "correct" in written English. This is wrong, and so is the original example.
nopenopenopeno 5y ago
Another American here. I never knew this. How common is this? Have I just assumed it’s a typo every time I see it? Or has (have?) the British media just become more Americanized like most places?
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  I am Canadian myself and generally follow the American style, but I believe it is very common, though not universal. Scanning The Guardian, they (!) seem to follow the American style, though this paragraph popped out at me where they use both: > Labour [singular] takes comfort partly from the fact it expended little effort or money on the seat, allowing the Lib Dems [plural] to declare themselves in the best position to challenge the Tories. But an American publication would probably write the same, because the name Lib Dems is itself pluralized.
  - Smaug123 5y ago
    "Labour" is a party name, and it is singular. "Liberal Democrats" is a party name, and it is plural. The verb is agreeing with the number of the noun, just as is usual in English.
sockbot 5y ago
It's not that American English uses singular for groups of people. It's that American English sees Apple as a singular corporate entity. British English peers past the corporate veil to see the singular corporation as it's underlying people.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  American English generally uses singular for collective nouns. British English generally uses plural. There are exceptions (such as if the name itself is pluralised), but that's the general rule. Whether its "peering past the corporate veil" or not is neither here nor there, as they treat all collective nouns this way.
- handelaar 5y ago
  No. Singular nouns require singular verbs, in both countries.
  - ninkendo 5y ago
    Sure, but there is some disagreement across the pond on which nouns are singular. Brits would be more likely to say “Led Zeppelin are on stage”, while Americans would prefer “Led Zeppelin is on stage”, and the reason is the disagreement between whether Led Zeppelin is singular (one band) or plural (4 people constituting the band.)
  - hackmiester 5y ago
    I wish you could provide some more details or substance so that I might know why your experiences contradict mine.
handelaar 5y ago
As someone who has worked as a sub (copy-editor) in the UK for many years in the past I cannot begin to describe exactly how completely incorrect this is.
- badtoro 5y ago
  British or American version?
- tomComb 5y ago
  If you are going to write something like that you really should explain.
  - nathancahill 5y ago
    Well he said he can't begin to describe...
- spacedcowboy 5y ago
  Have to agree - as a Brit, using 'help' there is just ... wrong
  - toyg 5y ago
    Not really. It's absolutely normal to see, for example, sports clubs and teams used as plural noun in the UK press; hence by extension it cann be used for any org. I know because it's a big gotcha for us Europeans, who tend to use the singular there.
Ar-Curunir 5y ago
I don't think that's the case; British English would say "X help Y" when X is a collective noun referring explicitly to a group of people, eg a football team ("Manchester United have scored"), or a band ("Radiohead are playing a concert today"). This means that "Spain (the country) is ..." but "Spain (the football team) are ...". See here for details: https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular-or-plural/ https://editorsmanual.com/articles/collective-nouns-singular...
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  That's more or less what I said, except a lot more nuanced.

travisgriggs 5y ago

Is that because whatever company we work for ourselves, those in charge tend to push that narrative so much? We get constantly bombarded by our own employers with messages of unity and vision statements and the business plan and the message etcetera. So even when we pause and think about our own experiences and we realize how many varied voices and agendas there are within, we’re conditioned when referring to a brand employer like Apple to reduce them to a single point of view.

JohnBooty 5y ago
we’re conditioned when referring to a brand employer like Apple to reduce them to a single point of view. Maybe? Americans also tend to be individualistic (often to a fault, many would say)so I'm not sure there's a cultural significance at work here. It's probably informative that British English tends to refer to most (all?) collective nouns this way. It's not some corporation-specific thing. Sports teams are the most obvious example - a Brit would say "Team A have defeated Team B" rather than "Team A has defeated Team B."