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> In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience. Well, some do. The anti-CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that. Do you

> In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience. Well, some do. The anti-CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that. Do you suppose they'll be teaching about the Tulsa Race Massacre in Oklahoma high schools in the near future? ETA I think people were taking me the wrong way. I added "anti-" above. The brouhaha is all the people trying to prevent their kids from hearing anything in history class that makes them feel bad. To the extent that they're putting the force of law behind suppressing the discussion of ugly events in US history, I would say this is pretty analogous to the policy of the CCP.

rajin444 5y ago
On a higher level the issue is not one sided and focusing solely on one side is what the CRT brouhaha is all about. It’s an ideology not an attempt at portraying reality. There is no human group in history that holds the moral high ground. Trying to convey anything else is tribalism.
zepto 5y ago
CRT has nothing to do with teaching history.
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  The parent commenter was referring to "the CRT brouhaha" (how the broader issue is playing out in the real world, not just what the academic term "critical race theory" does or doesn't refer to). The brouhaha is affecting how history is taught in at least some places. https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/us/texas-critical-race-theory-social-studies-law/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/us/texas-critical-race-theory... https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/02/why-are-states-banning-critical-race-theory/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/02/why-are-sta... https://time.com/6075193/critical-race-theory-debate/ https://time.com/6075193/critical-race-theory-debate/
  - zepto 5y ago
    Sure - but CRT has nothing to do with teaching history. I don’t support banning it, but even if someone did, that has noting to do with preventing people talking about Tulsa even in schools. Please stop making this absurd link. There is simply nothing comparable to what the Chinese are doing over Tiananmen.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  Also, CRT has probably never been taught in an American K-12 public school. It's an academic subject you would only encounter at a university in a very specific field of study.
zozbot234 5y ago
> Well, some do. The CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that. Yes, because "learning from our experience" is yet another form of oppression according to CRT pushers. And "discuss and debate" are routinely dismissed as "White" values.
- DFHippie 5y ago
  > Yes, because "learning from our experience" is yet another form of oppression according to CRT pushers. I don't understand. Are you saying people who discuss critical race theory are opposed to learning from our experience? Could you characterize what these people are doing? I'm genuinely curious. I don't mean to be aggressive, I just don't understand your point.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that I'm not claiming that some people in America would like to live under a totalitarian regime. I'm saying that's not what we have, and that most Americans don't want that. We can look at China, get scared, and note the similar systems in our own. But we shouldn't be lazy and conclude that, because bees and birds both have eyes they are fundamentally the same thing.
hitpointdrew 5y ago
Omitting something from a curriculum is one thing. Attempting to scrub it from the internet and all of human consciousness is a whole new level of tyranny. If I google "Tulsa Race Massacre" I immediately get results and information. Try searching for "Tiananmen square massacre" in China and see what kind of results you get. One is subjectively more egregious than the other. There isn't even a real comparison here.
- DFHippie 5y ago
  Sure. I was just responding to "In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience."
mcv 5y ago
It's clear that some Americans would prefer to hide and forget inconvenient parts of US history in the same way China would prefer to forget Tiananmen Square. Personally I'm strongly on the side of remembering history so we can learn from it and not be doomed to repeat it.
- rufus_foreman 5y ago
  In the same way China would prefer to forget Tiananmen Square? You are free in America to talk about the Tulsa race massacre as much as you like. You can look it up on the web, you can buy books about it. The government won't threaten you for doing so. It is taught in some schools and universities. In Oklahoma, it is required by law to be taught in schools. Every year at the end of May there are articles published about how no one knows about the Tulsa race massacre. That is not equivalent to the way China would prefer to forget Tiananmen Square. Those two things are not the same at all. America is not China. Freedom is not slavery.
  - mcv 5y ago
    That is all true. That doesn't change the fact that there are people in the US who would prefer that these events are not taught in school. It's good and important that they are, but there are people who would prefer to see only nationalistic feel-good history be taught. There are also schools that ban certain books, important, literary books. These are things to be wary of, and not be complacent about.
t-3 5y ago
I don't know about Oklahoma, but I did learn about the Tulsa Massacre in high school. I was also taught that it's my responsibility as a citizen to question my government and hold them to account, to never blindly trust them, and to reject nationalism. This is a pretty clear difference...

rajin444 5y ago

On a higher level the issue is not one sided and focusing solely on one side is what the CRT brouhaha is all about. It’s an ideology not an attempt at portraying reality. There is no human group in history that holds the moral high ground. Trying to convey anything else is tribalism.

zepto 5y ago

CRT has nothing to do with teaching history.

hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
The parent commenter was referring to "the CRT brouhaha" (how the broader issue is playing out in the real world, not just what the academic term "critical race theory" does or doesn't refer to). The brouhaha is affecting how history is taught in at least some places. https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/us/texas-critical-race-theory-social-studies-law/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/01/us/texas-critical-race-theory... https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/02/why-are-states-banning-critical-race-theory/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2021/07/02/why-are-sta... https://time.com/6075193/critical-race-theory-debate/ https://time.com/6075193/critical-race-theory-debate/
- zepto 5y ago
  Sure - but CRT has nothing to do with teaching history. I don’t support banning it, but even if someone did, that has noting to do with preventing people talking about Tulsa even in schools. Please stop making this absurd link. There is simply nothing comparable to what the Chinese are doing over Tiananmen.
tshaddox 5y ago
Also, CRT has probably never been taught in an American K-12 public school. It's an academic subject you would only encounter at a university in a very specific field of study.

zozbot234 5y ago

> Well, some do. The CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that. Yes, because "learning from our experience" is yet another form of oppression according to CRT pushers. And "discuss and debate" are routinely dismissed as "White" values.

DFHippie 5y ago
> Yes, because "learning from our experience" is yet another form of oppression according to CRT pushers. I don't understand. Are you saying people who discuss critical race theory are opposed to learning from our experience? Could you characterize what these people are doing? I'm genuinely curious. I don't mean to be aggressive, I just don't understand your point.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> CRT brouhaha is a reaction against that I'm not claiming that some people in America would like to live under a totalitarian regime. I'm saying that's not what we have, and that most Americans don't want that. We can look at China, get scared, and note the similar systems in our own. But we shouldn't be lazy and conclude that, because bees and birds both have eyes they are fundamentally the same thing.

hitpointdrew 5y ago

Omitting something from a curriculum is one thing. Attempting to scrub it from the internet and all of human consciousness is a whole new level of tyranny. If I google "Tulsa Race Massacre" I immediately get results and information. Try searching for "Tiananmen square massacre" in China and see what kind of results you get. One is subjectively more egregious than the other. There isn't even a real comparison here.

DFHippie 5y ago
Sure. I was just responding to "In America, we discuss and debate and try to incrementally learn from our experience."

mcv 5y ago

It's clear that some Americans would prefer to hide and forget inconvenient parts of US history in the same way China would prefer to forget Tiananmen Square. Personally I'm strongly on the side of remembering history so we can learn from it and not be doomed to repeat it.

rufus_foreman 5y ago
In the same way China would prefer to forget Tiananmen Square? You are free in America to talk about the Tulsa race massacre as much as you like. You can look it up on the web, you can buy books about it. The government won't threaten you for doing so. It is taught in some schools and universities. In Oklahoma, it is required by law to be taught in schools. Every year at the end of May there are articles published about how no one knows about the Tulsa race massacre. That is not equivalent to the way China would prefer to forget Tiananmen Square. Those two things are not the same at all. America is not China. Freedom is not slavery.
- mcv 5y ago
  That is all true. That doesn't change the fact that there are people in the US who would prefer that these events are not taught in school. It's good and important that they are, but there are people who would prefer to see only nationalistic feel-good history be taught. There are also schools that ban certain books, important, literary books. These are things to be wary of, and not be complacent about.

t-3 5y ago

I don't know about Oklahoma, but I did learn about the Tulsa Massacre in high school. I was also taught that it's my responsibility as a citizen to question my government and hold them to account, to never blindly trust them, and to reject nationalism. This is a pretty clear difference...