5 ms·

Hopefully this is high profile enough to incur some consequences. GPL is ironclad on paper, but the sad reality is unscrupulous/international companies can and

by Liquix 5y ago

Hopefully this is high profile enough to incur some consequences. GPL is ironclad on paper, but the sad reality is unscrupulous/international companies can and do just copy code directly off github into their products with no repercussions

trickstra 5y ago
And now they can also claim it was just autocompleted by Copilot.
- libeclipse 5y ago
  That's not plausible
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Hey, just because it would get laughed out of court, that doesn't mean they can't claim it!
    - randomluck040 5y ago
      I‘m not so sure about it being laughed out of court unfortunately.
      - donkeyd 5y ago
        Can concur, courts don't know jack about tech and have to rely on experts that aren't always independent.
        wizzwizz4 5y ago
        Rebutting the argument doesn't rely on tech knowledge. “But, your honour, I didn't copy this person's book! I used the autocomplete on my phone, and it just so happened to produce their 500 000 word novel!” You need tech knowledge to think that's even plausible. Sure, they wouldn't dismiss it out of hand (I think “laughed out of court” is a figure of speech), but I wouldn't be surprised if it got a few giggles.
        ShrigmaMale 5y ago
        This would be more like GPT-3 completing a specific novel.
        pabs3 5y ago
        ISTR someone used GPT-3 to autocomplete a chapter of Harry Potter.
        wizzwizz4 5y ago
        And doing so is still copyright infringement.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Using a tool to violate copyright isn't a valid legal defense.
  - trickstra 5y ago
    There is a "data minig" exception from copyright law, saying that you can use any available code to feed your AI and don't have respect the license. And the output of your AI is yours. So TikTok could claim they either use Copilot, which was fed OBS source, or that they created their own private AI similar to Copilot. Microsoft showed the way. It hasn't been tested at court AFAIK, but if a company can use this defense to protect their profits, for sure they will try.
    - mewse 5y ago
      Is there? Can you point it out to me? I’ve looked, but haven’t been able to find it. I imagine it’d be somewhere on this page, in section 107 or later [0], but I haven’t actually found a clause which looks like it either has the intent or side-effect of making “data minig” exempt from having to obey copyright requirements. [0]: https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107 https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
      - seanhunter 5y ago
        In the UK there is a data mining exemption to copyright for non-commercial research if you otherwise have "lawful access" to the work [1] but it clearly wouldn't cover something like copilot and just allows you to build the model. It doesn't give you a copyright exemption if the outputs of the model would otherwise be infringing on the copyright of the input material.[2] [1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright#text-and-data-mining-for-non-commercial-research https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright#text-and... [2] That is to say it is not mentioned, and to give you such an exemption it would need to be mentioned. Hasn't been tested in court either as far as I am aware
      - trickstra 5y ago
        It's literally the first search result for "data mining exception": https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/text-data-mining/ https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/text-dat... This is about EU and UK, but think about it, Microsoft Copilot is already doing it, and so far it seems like they will get away with it. So if feeding an open source code into AI and then using the output in a proprietary application is illegal in the US, then Copilot must be illegal. According to wikipedia in the US it falls under fair use because it is "transformative" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_mining#Situation_in_the_United_States_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_mining#Situation_in_the_U... however Copilot has been seen producing verbatim blocks of code matching some open source projects and so far no legal problems. Why couldn't TikTok claim the same?
tomcooks 5y ago
Consider donating to the EFF as a Christmas present to yourself
- reedciccio 5y ago
  eff doesn't do license enforcement. Software freedom conservancy is the organization to support in this case: https://sfconservancy.org/ https://sfconservancy.org/
  - fsflover 5y ago
    https://fsf.org https://fsf.org as well.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    sflc as well https://softwarefreedom.org/services/ https://softwarefreedom.org/services/
- oalessandr 5y ago
  The EFF lost all credibility by jumping into the crypto bandwagon
  - remram 5y ago
    What did they do?
    - LordDragonfang 5y ago
      If the above poster never replies, I would assume that they're referring to (from a quick google) the fact that the EFF opposes laws that would put liabilities for blockchain software on the software author[1], and provides other similar defenses, similar to how the ACLU occasionally defends the free speech of white supremacists[2], to ensure equal protection under the law and avoid setting a bad legal precedent. [1] https://www.eff.org/issues/blockchain https://www.eff.org/issues/blockchain [2] https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/defending-speech-we-hate/ https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/defending-speech-w... edit: Specifically, they probably mean the EFF's opposition to the crypto surveillance provision in the Biden infra bill: (Summary) https://twitter.com/eff/status/1422337127556157444 https://twitter.com/eff/status/1422337127556157444 (Article) https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/cryptocurrency-surveillance-provision-buried-infrastructure-bill-disaster-digital https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/cryptocurrency-surveil...
wongarsu 5y ago
Unless a major contributor of OBS sues, nothing will come of it. That's unfortunately very rare, the only one doing that with any frequency seems to be Harald Welte (one of the iptables developers) [1] 1: https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Welte_vs_Sitecom_.282004.29 https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Wel...
- nsv 5y ago
  Couldn't the FSF sue on their behalf?
  - rrix2 5y ago
    On what grounds? The FSF has no standing to sue like that. The software freedom conservancy has lawyers who will work on copyleft infringement cases like this but a copyright holder still has to step forward as a plaintiff.
    - cma 5y ago
      They could just provide legal support without being the plaintiff. They have done so before (or rather the Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy)): >That is how the FSF and Conservancy have always handled compliance. The FSF has done compliance work for the GNU Project for decades, and in all that time, we have only been forced to file a lawsuit once. The suit came about after years of working with the violator trying to correct their compliance. Even in that instance, where the FSF eventually did have to sue, the violator later went on to become a contributor to the GNU Project, and continued other free software activities as well. Conservancy has a similar track record of avoiding lawsuits; they are currently funding Christoph Hellwig's lawsuit against VMware in Germany, which marks the first time Conservancy has ever been involved with a lawsuit regarding Linux, and their FAQ explains the lawsuit came after four years of friendly efforts by many parties asking VMware to follow the GPL's requirements. https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/the-role-of-lawsuits-in-gpl-compliance https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/the-role-of-lawsuits-... >Conservancy maintains this FAQ list regarding Christoph Hellwig's lawsuit against VMware in Germany over alleged GPL violations on Linux as a service to the Free Software community, and in particular, the copyleft community. Conservancy realizes this lawsuit generates many questions and interest from the community. Legal counsel (both Conservancy's own, and Christoph's lawyer, Till Jaeger) correctly advise us to limit our public comments regarding specific details of the case while litigation remains pending in court. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vmware-lawsuit-faq.html#why-lawsuit https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vmware-lawsuit...
throwoutway 5y ago
Is there an organization that sues on behalf of OpenSource/GPL software? FSF? EFF Maybe?

by Liquix 5y ago

trickstra 5y ago

And now they can also claim it was just autocompleted by Copilot.

libeclipse 5y ago
That's not plausible
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  Hey, just because it would get laughed out of court, that doesn't mean they can't claim it!
  - randomluck040 5y ago
    I‘m not so sure about it being laughed out of court unfortunately.
    - donkeyd 5y ago
      Can concur, courts don't know jack about tech and have to rely on experts that aren't always independent.
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        Rebutting the argument doesn't rely on tech knowledge. “But, your honour, I didn't copy this person's book! I used the autocomplete on my phone, and it just so happened to produce their 500 000 word novel!” You need tech knowledge to think that's even plausible. Sure, they wouldn't dismiss it out of hand (I think “laughed out of court” is a figure of speech), but I wouldn't be surprised if it got a few giggles.
        ShrigmaMale 5y ago
        This would be more like GPT-3 completing a specific novel.
        pabs3 5y ago
        ISTR someone used GPT-3 to autocomplete a chapter of Harry Potter.
        wizzwizz4 5y ago
        And doing so is still copyright infringement.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
Using a tool to violate copyright isn't a valid legal defense.
- trickstra 5y ago
  There is a "data minig" exception from copyright law, saying that you can use any available code to feed your AI and don't have respect the license. And the output of your AI is yours. So TikTok could claim they either use Copilot, which was fed OBS source, or that they created their own private AI similar to Copilot. Microsoft showed the way. It hasn't been tested at court AFAIK, but if a company can use this defense to protect their profits, for sure they will try.
  - mewse 5y ago
    Is there? Can you point it out to me? I’ve looked, but haven’t been able to find it. I imagine it’d be somewhere on this page, in section 107 or later [0], but I haven’t actually found a clause which looks like it either has the intent or side-effect of making “data minig” exempt from having to obey copyright requirements. [0]: https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107 https://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107
    - seanhunter 5y ago
      In the UK there is a data mining exemption to copyright for non-commercial research if you otherwise have "lawful access" to the work [1] but it clearly wouldn't cover something like copilot and just allows you to build the model. It doesn't give you a copyright exemption if the outputs of the model would otherwise be infringing on the copyright of the input material.[2] [1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright#text-and-data-mining-for-non-commercial-research https://www.gov.uk/guidance/exceptions-to-copyright#text-and... [2] That is to say it is not mentioned, and to give you such an exemption it would need to be mentioned. Hasn't been tested in court either as far as I am aware
    - trickstra 5y ago
      It's literally the first search result for "data mining exception": https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/text-data-mining/ https://www.copyrightuser.org/understand/exceptions/text-dat... This is about EU and UK, but think about it, Microsoft Copilot is already doing it, and so far it seems like they will get away with it. So if feeding an open source code into AI and then using the output in a proprietary application is illegal in the US, then Copilot must be illegal. According to wikipedia in the US it falls under fair use because it is "transformative" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_mining#Situation_in_the_United_States_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_mining#Situation_in_the_U... however Copilot has been seen producing verbatim blocks of code matching some open source projects and so far no legal problems. Why couldn't TikTok claim the same?

tomcooks 5y ago

Consider donating to the EFF as a Christmas present to yourself

reedciccio 5y ago
eff doesn't do license enforcement. Software freedom conservancy is the organization to support in this case: https://sfconservancy.org/ https://sfconservancy.org/
- fsflover 5y ago
  https://fsf.org https://fsf.org as well.
- pengaru 5y ago
  sflc as well https://softwarefreedom.org/services/ https://softwarefreedom.org/services/
oalessandr 5y ago
The EFF lost all credibility by jumping into the crypto bandwagon
- remram 5y ago
  What did they do?
  - LordDragonfang 5y ago
    If the above poster never replies, I would assume that they're referring to (from a quick google) the fact that the EFF opposes laws that would put liabilities for blockchain software on the software author[1], and provides other similar defenses, similar to how the ACLU occasionally defends the free speech of white supremacists[2], to ensure equal protection under the law and avoid setting a bad legal precedent. [1] https://www.eff.org/issues/blockchain https://www.eff.org/issues/blockchain [2] https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/defending-speech-we-hate/ https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/defending-speech-w... edit: Specifically, they probably mean the EFF's opposition to the crypto surveillance provision in the Biden infra bill: (Summary) https://twitter.com/eff/status/1422337127556157444 https://twitter.com/eff/status/1422337127556157444 (Article) https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/cryptocurrency-surveillance-provision-buried-infrastructure-bill-disaster-digital https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/cryptocurrency-surveil...

wongarsu 5y ago

Unless a major contributor of OBS sues, nothing will come of it. That's unfortunately very rare, the only one doing that with any frequency seems to be Harald Welte (one of the iptables developers) [1] 1: https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Welte_vs_Sitecom_.282004.29 https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Wel...

nsv 5y ago
Couldn't the FSF sue on their behalf?
- rrix2 5y ago
  On what grounds? The FSF has no standing to sue like that. The software freedom conservancy has lawyers who will work on copyleft infringement cases like this but a copyright holder still has to step forward as a plaintiff.
  - cma 5y ago
    They could just provide legal support without being the plaintiff. They have done so before (or rather the Software Freedom Conservancy (Conservancy)): >That is how the FSF and Conservancy have always handled compliance. The FSF has done compliance work for the GNU Project for decades, and in all that time, we have only been forced to file a lawsuit once. The suit came about after years of working with the violator trying to correct their compliance. Even in that instance, where the FSF eventually did have to sue, the violator later went on to become a contributor to the GNU Project, and continued other free software activities as well. Conservancy has a similar track record of avoiding lawsuits; they are currently funding Christoph Hellwig's lawsuit against VMware in Germany, which marks the first time Conservancy has ever been involved with a lawsuit regarding Linux, and their FAQ explains the lawsuit came after four years of friendly efforts by many parties asking VMware to follow the GPL's requirements. https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/the-role-of-lawsuits-in-gpl-compliance https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/the-role-of-lawsuits-... >Conservancy maintains this FAQ list regarding Christoph Hellwig's lawsuit against VMware in Germany over alleged GPL violations on Linux as a service to the Free Software community, and in particular, the copyleft community. Conservancy realizes this lawsuit generates many questions and interest from the community. Legal counsel (both Conservancy's own, and Christoph's lawyer, Till Jaeger) correctly advise us to limit our public comments regarding specific details of the case while litigation remains pending in court. https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vmware-lawsuit-faq.html#why-lawsuit https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/vmware-lawsuit...

throwoutway 5y ago

Is there an organization that sues on behalf of OpenSource/GPL software? FSF? EFF Maybe?