4 ms·

Completely disagree with your portrayal of consequentialism. Freedom absolutely provides utility, and allowing the government to disappear people who disagree w

Completely disagree with your portrayal of consequentialism. Freedom absolutely provides utility, and allowing the government to disappear people who disagree with it is in no way a path to maximizing utility.

Bayesian_bro 5y ago
The American government "disappears" many people by locking them up in the criminal justice system. It's just for slightly different reasons.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  Slightly different? Who is in prison for something "slightly different" than publicly accusing a government official of rape?
- NikolaeVarius 5y ago
  You understand that when you disappear someone, it means that you have no idea what happened to them.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    Now that this is moving the goal posts. Lots of people go missing and die for unknown reasons, including non-violent ones. The issue with "disappearing" is that it is done by coordinated groups (including the prison-industrial complex). It is not that we don't know precisely how the victims got hurt.
- dionidium 5y ago
  This comparison is risible. First of all, you actually do have to commit a crime to go to prison, in the vast majority of cases. Second, the details of your trial (and appeal) are public. The "mass incarceration" meme has been too successful for it's own good, so successful that people seem earnestly to believe that most prisoners are innocent or there for spurious reasons, but it's simply not the case. The median state prisoner in the U.S. is a violent offender with a long rap sheet.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >The median state prisoner in the U.S. is a violent offender with a long rap sheet. source?
    - dionidium 5y ago
      As the chart here shows, violent offenders are the largest category of prisoners: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html This chart reveals a lot of problems with our system. Are too many people in jail for drugs? Sure, probably. (But it's nowhere near the largest category.) Do we have a big problem with getting people in local jails to speedy trials? Yes, absolutely. Are our sentences too long? Yes, in some cases. But most people in prison committed a serious crime. I don't have the data on the "long rap sheet" portion of my claim, though I would encourage you to look out for it every time there's a news story about a high-profile arrest. The list of previous crimes in most cases would be comical if it weren't so tragic. Additionally, studies of released inmates show very high recidivism rates. One study showed that, "401,288 state prisoners released in 2005 had 1,994,000 arrests during the 9-year period, an average of 5 arrests per released prisoner". Source: https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/2018-update-prisoner-recidivism-9-year-follow-period-2005-2014 https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/2018-update-prisone...
- ctvo 5y ago
  The American criminal justice system has problems. Those problems are systemic and publicly discussed, but the rule of law exists, and the process is public, and you have the right to defend yourself against charges the state levies. When is Jack Ma's public trial? Peng Shuai's? Putting things into quotes doesn't make it "work".
  - BurningFrog 5y ago
    96% of sentences in the US are handed out without a trial.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      Because the defendants choose to forgo their trial. Chinese defendants are not given the option.
      - BurningFrog 5y ago
        They choose that, because trial sentences are 2-4 times longer than plea deals. You can choose to go to trial, but if you do, you will be severely punished for that choice. This is one major reason so many innocent people are jailed in the US.
        dionidium 5y ago
        A vanishingly small percentage of these defendants are innocent. Prison reform cannot proceed rationally unless everybody involved admits that nearly all the people who go to prison did indeed commit a serious crime.
merpnderp 5y ago
I don't think you're down in the weeds enough. China does have freedom to a degree. Obviously there's lots of ways where they have zero freedom also. But it certainly looks like the CCP is attempting to maximize freedom where it provides utility and minimize it where it hurts their goals or prosperity. I vehemently disagree with that stance, but I do want acknowledge the CCP's actual stance.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  Disappearing people who accuse the government/government officials of wrongdoing will never maximize utility.
  - marderfarker2 5y ago
    I think you will disappear if you offend anyone too powerful, even in first worlds/democratic countries.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I think that is a weak argument and difficult or impossible to prove. The better argument is against utilitarianism itself. Humans deserve some rights even if it means less utility.

Bayesian_bro 5y ago

The American government "disappears" many people by locking them up in the criminal justice system. It's just for slightly different reasons.

merpnderp 5y ago
Slightly different? Who is in prison for something "slightly different" than publicly accusing a government official of rape?
NikolaeVarius 5y ago
You understand that when you disappear someone, it means that you have no idea what happened to them.
- pphysch 5y ago
  Now that this is moving the goal posts. Lots of people go missing and die for unknown reasons, including non-violent ones. The issue with "disappearing" is that it is done by coordinated groups (including the prison-industrial complex). It is not that we don't know precisely how the victims got hurt.
dionidium 5y ago
This comparison is risible. First of all, you actually do have to commit a crime to go to prison, in the vast majority of cases. Second, the details of your trial (and appeal) are public. The "mass incarceration" meme has been too successful for it's own good, so successful that people seem earnestly to believe that most prisoners are innocent or there for spurious reasons, but it's simply not the case. The median state prisoner in the U.S. is a violent offender with a long rap sheet.
- gruez 5y ago
  >The median state prisoner in the U.S. is a violent offender with a long rap sheet. source?
  - dionidium 5y ago
    As the chart here shows, violent offenders are the largest category of prisoners: https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html This chart reveals a lot of problems with our system. Are too many people in jail for drugs? Sure, probably. (But it's nowhere near the largest category.) Do we have a big problem with getting people in local jails to speedy trials? Yes, absolutely. Are our sentences too long? Yes, in some cases. But most people in prison committed a serious crime. I don't have the data on the "long rap sheet" portion of my claim, though I would encourage you to look out for it every time there's a news story about a high-profile arrest. The list of previous crimes in most cases would be comical if it weren't so tragic. Additionally, studies of released inmates show very high recidivism rates. One study showed that, "401,288 state prisoners released in 2005 had 1,994,000 arrests during the 9-year period, an average of 5 arrests per released prisoner". Source: https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/2018-update-prisoner-recidivism-9-year-follow-period-2005-2014 https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/2018-update-prisone...
ctvo 5y ago
The American criminal justice system has problems. Those problems are systemic and publicly discussed, but the rule of law exists, and the process is public, and you have the right to defend yourself against charges the state levies. When is Jack Ma's public trial? Peng Shuai's? Putting things into quotes doesn't make it "work".
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  96% of sentences in the US are handed out without a trial.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Because the defendants choose to forgo their trial. Chinese defendants are not given the option.
    - BurningFrog 5y ago
      They choose that, because trial sentences are 2-4 times longer than plea deals. You can choose to go to trial, but if you do, you will be severely punished for that choice. This is one major reason so many innocent people are jailed in the US.
      - dionidium 5y ago
        A vanishingly small percentage of these defendants are innocent. Prison reform cannot proceed rationally unless everybody involved admits that nearly all the people who go to prison did indeed commit a serious crime.

merpnderp 5y ago

I don't think you're down in the weeds enough. China does have freedom to a degree. Obviously there's lots of ways where they have zero freedom also. But it certainly looks like the CCP is attempting to maximize freedom where it provides utility and minimize it where it hurts their goals or prosperity. I vehemently disagree with that stance, but I do want acknowledge the CCP's actual stance.

colinmhayes 5y ago
Disappearing people who accuse the government/government officials of wrongdoing will never maximize utility.
- marderfarker2 5y ago
  I think you will disappear if you offend anyone too powerful, even in first worlds/democratic countries.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  I think that is a weak argument and difficult or impossible to prove. The better argument is against utilitarianism itself. Humans deserve some rights even if it means less utility.