6 ms·

No evidence that parachutes prevent injuries when jumping out of planes (2003)

78 points by lord_sudo 5y ago

mikequinlan 5y ago
Published 18 December 2003
- nannal 5y ago
  Yes changes in parachute and plane technology may have rendered this research obsolete.
SethTro 5y ago
They did a follow up randomized experiment where people jumped out of planes (at 2ft) with and without parachutes. https://healthjournalism.org/blog/2019/02/breakthrough-research-reveals-parachutes-dont-prevent-death-when-jumping-from-a-plane/ https://healthjournalism.org/blog/2019/02/breakthrough-resea...
- jraph 5y ago
  This is the first time I hear about this issue. > We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute. I wasn't expecting this. My reaction to what I understood as "Need solid studies? Nobody's preventing you to go kill yourselves to make your point, be our guests, the world will be better without you anyway!" was: what? this can't be serious. This is indeed not serious as your link outlines: > Obviously the first parachute study was tongue-in-cheek, but the authors’ point was important: The absence of randomized controlled trials for a certain medical intervention does not mean that the intervention cannot be safe and effective. And an RCT often would be unethical, as I noted in a past blog on the “tyranny of the RCT.” Sometimes, well-designed observational studies must suffice. This is well done. Okay, I have my shot of serious fun for the day, let's go back to work.
- 3np 5y ago
  https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
ukj 5y ago
The experiment design is ready and waiting! The participants are all lined up. Just have to bribe the ethics board!
- wishiwasaninja 5y ago
  > Ethical approval Not required I'd say it's ready to roll.
cblconfederate 5y ago
This "review" is meant to highlight the absurdity of needing randomized control studies for things that are observationally obvious. There is however a follow up RCT study that used actual jumpers to prove that parachutes do help https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094
- fbn79 5y ago
  For ages was "observationally obvious" that life can came out from inanimated materia without https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation
  - foxhop 5y ago
    Read about the unified field, it seems all materia extrudes from this field. Maybe not so far fetched after all? Life being consciousness which helps the unified field extrude into intelligent forms and continues to unfold.
m4r35n357 5y ago
2003
hannob 5y ago
This may sound like fun, but there's some evidence that the parachute analogy has been massively overused: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29343497/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29343497/ Like the idea here is that there are some interventions that are so obvious that you don't need rigorous evidence to show they work. However as it turns out people use that analogy to justify interventions that did later turn out to not work.
- refurb 5y ago
  I’m too lazy to search for it, but there was an organization that collected the top “stop doing these things in medicine because they don’t work”. The polled the major medical societies to put them together. Ranges from emergency medicine to gynecology. I think most people would be shocked to learn: 1) how many “obvious” interventions don’t work and 2) how common they are in today’s medical practice.
  - throwaway934876 5y ago
    And 3, how many people are utterly convinced they DO work. Like with homeopathy.
    - steeleduncan 5y ago
      I'm not sure I'd classify drinking and incredibly dilute version of the poison you have just ingested to cure you of that poison as an obvious intervention that doesn't work. It seems more of an obviously useless thing to do that doesn't work.
      - votepaunchy 5y ago
        Isn’t homeopathy just a way to sell the placebo effect, for which we have ample supporting evidence as the basis for medical studies?
        drekk 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
praptak 5y ago
Article: "Data on parachutes found not to be conclusive" Serious media: "Serious doubts on parachutes" Tabloid portals: "Click to see the shocking truth on parachutes!" Social media: "Parachute industry conspiracy! No-parachute jumping party at 11!"
- jraph 5y ago
  It's more like "not found to be conclusive [yet]" for "Article", but the rest can remain unchanged.
amatic 5y ago
Related SSC post: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence-is-a-red-flag https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence... The Phrase "No Evidence" Is A Red Flag For Bad Science Communication
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
arketyp 5y ago
Masks work but so does the (non-)impression of a shielded face. Those aspects are luxuries maybe, but at some point, even granted the utilitarian outlook, it weights in on the Well-being calculus too. I feel sad for kids especially.
dkmn 5y ago
^this Hilarious. One of the things that had most annoyed me in medicine since 1995,a slavish dedication to what I've come to call "evidence based nihilism". And a lot of the people who are most rigid do not treat patients but get promoted out of useful work. The space of actual practice is far more complex and some applied science is actually called for. What's worse, this kind of sanctimonious stringency (large industry/govt funded placebo DB RCT etc) is selectively applied to only certain practices, never to received wisdom or pet projects.

78 points by lord_sudo 5y ago

mikequinlan 5y ago

Published 18 December 2003

nannal 5y ago
Yes changes in parachute and plane technology may have rendered this research obsolete.

SethTro 5y ago

They did a follow up randomized experiment where people jumped out of planes (at 2ft) with and without parachutes. https://healthjournalism.org/blog/2019/02/breakthrough-research-reveals-parachutes-dont-prevent-death-when-jumping-from-a-plane/ https://healthjournalism.org/blog/2019/02/breakthrough-resea...

jraph 5y ago
This is the first time I hear about this issue. > We think that everyone might benefit if the most radical protagonists of evidence based medicine organised and participated in a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled, crossover trial of the parachute. I wasn't expecting this. My reaction to what I understood as "Need solid studies? Nobody's preventing you to go kill yourselves to make your point, be our guests, the world will be better without you anyway!" was: what? this can't be serious. This is indeed not serious as your link outlines: > Obviously the first parachute study was tongue-in-cheek, but the authors’ point was important: The absence of randomized controlled trials for a certain medical intervention does not mean that the intervention cannot be safe and effective. And an RCT often would be unethical, as I noted in a past blog on the “tyranny of the RCT.” Sometimes, well-designed observational studies must suffice. This is well done. Okay, I have my shot of serious fun for the day, let's go back to work.
3np 5y ago
https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094

ukj 5y ago

The experiment design is ready and waiting! The participants are all lined up. Just have to bribe the ethics board!

wishiwasaninja 5y ago
> Ethical approval Not required I'd say it's ready to roll.

cblconfederate 5y ago

This "review" is meant to highlight the absurdity of needing randomized control studies for things that are observationally obvious. There is however a follow up RCT study that used actual jumpers to prove that parachutes do help https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094

fbn79 5y ago
For ages was "observationally obvious" that life can came out from inanimated materia without https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation
- foxhop 5y ago
  Read about the unified field, it seems all materia extrudes from this field. Maybe not so far fetched after all? Life being consciousness which helps the unified field extrude into intelligent forms and continues to unfold.

m4r35n357 5y ago

2003

hannob 5y ago

This may sound like fun, but there's some evidence that the parachute analogy has been massively overused: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29343497/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29343497/ Like the idea here is that there are some interventions that are so obvious that you don't need rigorous evidence to show they work. However as it turns out people use that analogy to justify interventions that did later turn out to not work.

refurb 5y ago
I’m too lazy to search for it, but there was an organization that collected the top “stop doing these things in medicine because they don’t work”. The polled the major medical societies to put them together. Ranges from emergency medicine to gynecology. I think most people would be shocked to learn: 1) how many “obvious” interventions don’t work and 2) how common they are in today’s medical practice.
- throwaway934876 5y ago
  And 3, how many people are utterly convinced they DO work. Like with homeopathy.
  - steeleduncan 5y ago
    I'm not sure I'd classify drinking and incredibly dilute version of the poison you have just ingested to cure you of that poison as an obvious intervention that doesn't work. It seems more of an obviously useless thing to do that doesn't work.
    - votepaunchy 5y ago
      Isn’t homeopathy just a way to sell the placebo effect, for which we have ample supporting evidence as the basis for medical studies?
      - drekk 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

praptak 5y ago

Article: "Data on parachutes found not to be conclusive" Serious media: "Serious doubts on parachutes" Tabloid portals: "Click to see the shocking truth on parachutes!" Social media: "Parachute industry conspiracy! No-parachute jumping party at 11!"

jraph 5y ago
It's more like "not found to be conclusive [yet]" for "Article", but the rest can remain unchanged.

amatic 5y ago

Related SSC post: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence-is-a-red-flag https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/the-phrase-no-evidence... The Phrase "No Evidence" Is A Red Flag For Bad Science Communication

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

arketyp 5y ago

Masks work but so does the (non-)impression of a shielded face. Those aspects are luxuries maybe, but at some point, even granted the utilitarian outlook, it weights in on the Well-being calculus too. I feel sad for kids especially.

dkmn 5y ago

^this Hilarious. One of the things that had most annoyed me in medicine since 1995,a slavish dedication to what I've come to call "evidence based nihilism". And a lot of the people who are most rigid do not treat patients but get promoted out of useful work. The space of actual practice is far more complex and some applied science is actually called for. What's worse, this kind of sanctimonious stringency (large industry/govt funded placebo DB RCT etc) is selectively applied to only certain practices, never to received wisdom or pet projects.