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> NSO has said it sells its software to governments to combat terrorism and serious crime, and isn't responsible for how it may be misused. Such bullshit. In t

> NSO has said it sells its software to governments to combat terrorism and serious crime, and isn't responsible for how it may be misused. Such bullshit. In the Nuremberg trials in the aftermath of the Second World War, several directors of IG Farben were held responsible for shipping the chemical Zyklon B to the SS which used it commit mass murder. The court rejected the defendants argument that they weren't responsible for how their product was used. Similarly, NSO and other spyware companies are responsible for how authoritarian regimes use their products to harass and endanger dissidents.

nindalf 5y ago
I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying. My only quibble is where we draw the line when it comes to supplying software. Is Microsoft ultimately responsible for the nuclear deterrents that run on Windows XP?
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  They had to explicitly pass through the DoD certifications and contracts requirements, and probably had to implement some custom features on Windows for it. So hes, they are. Now, the question is: would you rather have lived the cold war without a nuclear deterrent in your country? It's a harder question to answer.
keyme 5y ago
You tech bros have seriously lost it at this point, haven't you. You are literally comparing selling gas that was essentialy designed to mass murder people in camps, to selling a surveillance tool that can hack your precious iphones.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  It doesn't matter where you are on the scale if the scale of "helping dictators with malicious intents". Don't get me wrong, I don't think facebook or any big tech companies has any kind of moral upper hand, given they all spy on people, lie, engage in corruption, monopoly abuses, and so on. And they all have weapon dealers in their portfolio, which sell arms to the same people using pegasus.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    > It doesn't matter where you are on the scale imho it does. In the "IG Farben" example the managers were held accountable (correctly) because they should have known better, but not the ppl producing/packing/shipping some chemicals.
- pjc50 5y ago
  There's quite probably links to actual murders of dissidents by intelligence services, of which Jamal Kashoggi is just the most conspicuous example. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/nso-spyware-used-to-target-family-of-jamal-khashoggi-leaked-data-shows-saudis-pegasus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/nso-spyware-us... (To get ahead of the whataboutery: at this stage anyone providing military aid to the Saudi government is complicit in their crimes, including the US and UK militaries and their involvement in the war on Yemen)
oakfr 5y ago
Indeed. Denial of responsibility is a feature of violent communication. https://blog.chaddickerson.com/2018/10/29/nonviolent-communication-and-the-concept-of-denial-of-responsibility/ https://blog.chaddickerson.com/2018/10/29/nonviolent-communi...

nindalf 5y ago

I agree with the spirit of what you’re saying. My only quibble is where we draw the line when it comes to supplying software. Is Microsoft ultimately responsible for the nuclear deterrents that run on Windows XP?

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
They had to explicitly pass through the DoD certifications and contracts requirements, and probably had to implement some custom features on Windows for it. So hes, they are. Now, the question is: would you rather have lived the cold war without a nuclear deterrent in your country? It's a harder question to answer.

keyme 5y ago

You tech bros have seriously lost it at this point, haven't you. You are literally comparing selling gas that was essentialy designed to mass murder people in camps, to selling a surveillance tool that can hack your precious iphones.

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
It doesn't matter where you are on the scale if the scale of "helping dictators with malicious intents". Don't get me wrong, I don't think facebook or any big tech companies has any kind of moral upper hand, given they all spy on people, lie, engage in corruption, monopoly abuses, and so on. And they all have weapon dealers in their portfolio, which sell arms to the same people using pegasus.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  > It doesn't matter where you are on the scale imho it does. In the "IG Farben" example the managers were held accountable (correctly) because they should have known better, but not the ppl producing/packing/shipping some chemicals.
pjc50 5y ago
There's quite probably links to actual murders of dissidents by intelligence services, of which Jamal Kashoggi is just the most conspicuous example. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/nso-spyware-used-to-target-family-of-jamal-khashoggi-leaked-data-shows-saudis-pegasus https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/18/nso-spyware-us... (To get ahead of the whataboutery: at this stage anyone providing military aid to the Saudi government is complicit in their crimes, including the US and UK militaries and their involvement in the war on Yemen)

oakfr 5y ago

Indeed. Denial of responsibility is a feature of violent communication. https://blog.chaddickerson.com/2018/10/29/nonviolent-communication-and-the-concept-of-denial-of-responsibility/ https://blog.chaddickerson.com/2018/10/29/nonviolent-communi...