5 ms·

Apple has severely cut back on QA and simply cannot claim to publish quality software anymore. The number of very easy to find bugs I run into makes that obvio

Apple has severely cut back on QA and simply cannot claim to publish quality software anymore. The number of very easy to find bugs I run into makes that obvious. As an example, the latest iOS update introduced a bug that causes the input box to disappear completely on an iMessage thread so I can’t send messages unless I close it and come back. Happens daily. Embarrassing. It doesn’t help that I have a friend who works at Apple and acts as though the continued bugginess is my fault unless I take the time to undergo the pain of submitting bugs, for which one never receives a response and which are ignored for literally years on end. We are all unappreciated beta testers.

k_sze 5y ago
> We are all unappreciated beta testers. What makes it worse is that you are PAYING to test their buggy software.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  Unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't make anyone pay for the OS since... 2013 IIRC?
  - herbst 5y ago
    Don't you just get a free license when you buy their expensive ~locked down~ hardware? Afaik you don't get free osx licenses for hackintosh or virtual build machines.
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      > Don't you just get a free license when you buy their expensive locked down hardware? Apple hardware capable of running macOS may be expensive, but "locked down"? Definitely not. You can run Debian on anything from old PowerMacs to the new M1 model, although I admit that the driver situation on M1 isn't feature-complete.
      - herbst 5y ago
        You are right, locked down is definitely to strong. My assumption is based on driver issues you might face in the past.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - ben-schaaf 5y ago
        On the other hand iPhones and iPads are very locked down.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't make anyone pay for the OS since... 2013 IIRC? Really? Please let me know where I can get the latest MacOS for free to replace Windows with it on my PC.
    - colejohnson66 5y ago
      Don’t be like that. Providing it for free does not mean that it has to work on your device. By that definition, no software (including non-Apple) for macOS is ever free because it requires a more expensive computer to run. Besides, there’s guides-a-plenty all over the internet about making “Hackintoshes”.
      - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        Then the comparison on pricing between Windows and MacOS that grandparent made doesn't make sense if one cannot be bough without accompanying hardware, unlike the other, effectively making MacOS priced into the hardware itself, so the comparison falls flat from the start. By that logic iOS and Android are also free and you can alo get Windows for free with various OEM Laptops and system if we use that logic with the difference that you can choose to purchase Windows licenses to use on a machine you build yourself vs the inability to purchase an separate MacOS license without any Apple hardware. So any comparisons on the price of the OS are moot since the cost of MacOS is priced into the accompanying hardware, MacBook, iMAc, etc as you cannot buy it without.
      - NoSorryCannot 5y ago
        Characterizing macOS as something Apple intends to distribute as free is mostly false. They intend to charge for it with the purchase of a Mac. Microsoft also distributes Windows "for free" on their website and if you care not at all about license terms as we evidently don't when it comes to Mac OS, then it presents no moral quandary to disable its activation annoyances. Is Windows free?
        pram 5y ago
        There is no license that can be purchased for MacOS. It literally has no cost in any circumstance. This is just tortured sophistry to arrive at the tremendous conclusion that Windows does, and sometimes doesn’t, cost money. Is windows free? "Sometimes!"
  - hamburglar 5y ago
    When was the last time you heard of someone actually buying a copy of Windows, though? I've owned a lot of different versions of Windows in the past 30 years, but never paid for a single one.
    - Sophira 5y ago
      I know someone who bought a copy of Windows 10 for their computer, because they asked me to help install it. It was definitely not an OEM thing, and the packaging had a USB drive in it.
wmil 5y ago
> We are all unappreciated beta testers. I've been trying to popularize "gamma testers" for years without much success.
- eesmith 5y ago
  So have others! Here's InfoWorld from 1994 - https://books.google.com/books?id=gzgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA59&dq=%22gamma+testers%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCj8a3v-r0AhV9QvEDHfLaBoEQ6AF6BAgFEAI#v=onepage&q=%22gamma%20testers%22&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=gzgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA59&dq=%2... > Several readers used the same term for what they think the industry has made them become: gamma testers. > "Gamma testing is just like beta testing in that you get a product that's too buggy for prime time and you help the vendor iron out the problems," explained one. "The only difference is that now we're bug testing what's supposed to be a shipping product that we paid for. And likely as not, these days they'll try to charge us for the privilege of reporting the bugs we find." Oldest use I could find was from 1983, at https://archive.org/details/sim_micro-marketworld_1983-03-07_6_5/page/n53/mode/2up?q=%22gamma+testers%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_micro-marketworld_1983-03-07... : > Plus, WORDVISION is designed to be "support-free" after the sale, and our unique Pioneer's Club of "gamma testers" is helping insure we live up to that goal. Here's a 2007 use describing a problem with the phrase, from https://archive.org/details/sdtimes184/page/n43/mode/2up?q=%22gamma+tester%22 https://archive.org/details/sdtimes184/page/n43/mode/2up?q=%... > ... at least a decade since I started calling myself an unpaid gamma tester, for example. But people thought that one meant I specialized in displays and monitors...
RileyJames 5y ago
Yea, I’m feeling this. I submitted a bug report, and while there was a lot of “care”, the result was “not a bug, won’t fix”. On the one hand, I can understand that. But on the other, it’s a crappy user experience, and the apple I supported, I’d expect to fix it. It’s why I’d rather support opensource now. As, at least if no one cares to fix it, it can do it myself, or pay someone else to. The bug: the default iOS mail client chokes if you copy and paste an email link into the to, cc or bcc field. Ie: “mail to:test@test.com”. The response was “that’s how links work, that’s not a bug in the client”, and while technically that’s true. The best user experience would be parse out the “mailto:” when pasted into the to,cc,bcc field rather than failing to send the email. And yes, from safari you can select “open in mail” and it will work. But if you need to copy a second mail link to cc, you’re stuffed.
- fouc 5y ago
  Copy'n'pasting "mailto:test@test.com" into gmail's new mail "to:" field also doesn't magically remove the mailto: part either.
  - RileyJames 5y ago
    Ok. Well I’d consider them both subpar experiences. And I think it quite clearly could be better.
- smcl 5y ago
  Chokes as in, it freezes up or something?
  - RileyJames 5y ago
    As in, it doesn’t send the email. And there’s no way to edit out the “mailto:” portion. So the solution is to copy and paste the link into a text editor/notepad, remove the “mailto:” portion and then copy and paste the remaining portion into the mail client to,cc,bcc field. And I think a better solution would be to either: A) automatically parse out the mailto: portion when pasting into the to,cc,bcc field. Or B) prompt the user before doing A. Ie “do you mean to send to test@test.com?”
PostThisTooFast 5y ago
"the latest iOS update introduced a bug that causes the input box to disappear completely on an iMessage thread" That defect has been around for years.
herbst 5y ago
I had a Macbook pro for about 6 months about 5 years ago. I filed afaik 5 bugs, 4 of them for screen related issues. (no external screen without powering the laptop, external screens don't come back after sleep, etc ..) all bugs that have been in the whole series (other colleagues got the same 2500$ beast, with the same issues) Not a single one was answered in the time I worked there. A few got some 'me toos' At the same time I filed several bug reports for the new Gnome desktop that was rolling out and they all got answered, fixed or at least closed with a short answer. It was only a short time I worked in that ecosystem. But as far as it worked out for me, I got zero support for several major bugs. Definitely not what I expected. Definitely not a OS I am willing to spend productive time on.

k_sze 5y ago

> We are all unappreciated beta testers. What makes it worse is that you are PAYING to test their buggy software.

mschuster91 5y ago
Unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't make anyone pay for the OS since... 2013 IIRC?
- herbst 5y ago
  Don't you just get a free license when you buy their expensive ~locked down~ hardware? Afaik you don't get free osx licenses for hackintosh or virtual build machines.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > Don't you just get a free license when you buy their expensive locked down hardware? Apple hardware capable of running macOS may be expensive, but "locked down"? Definitely not. You can run Debian on anything from old PowerMacs to the new M1 model, although I admit that the driver situation on M1 isn't feature-complete.
    - herbst 5y ago
      You are right, locked down is definitely to strong. My assumption is based on driver issues you might face in the past.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - ben-schaaf 5y ago
      On the other hand iPhones and iPads are very locked down.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >Unlike Microsoft, Apple doesn't make anyone pay for the OS since... 2013 IIRC? Really? Please let me know where I can get the latest MacOS for free to replace Windows with it on my PC.
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    Don’t be like that. Providing it for free does not mean that it has to work on your device. By that definition, no software (including non-Apple) for macOS is ever free because it requires a more expensive computer to run. Besides, there’s guides-a-plenty all over the internet about making “Hackintoshes”.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      Then the comparison on pricing between Windows and MacOS that grandparent made doesn't make sense if one cannot be bough without accompanying hardware, unlike the other, effectively making MacOS priced into the hardware itself, so the comparison falls flat from the start. By that logic iOS and Android are also free and you can alo get Windows for free with various OEM Laptops and system if we use that logic with the difference that you can choose to purchase Windows licenses to use on a machine you build yourself vs the inability to purchase an separate MacOS license without any Apple hardware. So any comparisons on the price of the OS are moot since the cost of MacOS is priced into the accompanying hardware, MacBook, iMAc, etc as you cannot buy it without.
    - NoSorryCannot 5y ago
      Characterizing macOS as something Apple intends to distribute as free is mostly false. They intend to charge for it with the purchase of a Mac. Microsoft also distributes Windows "for free" on their website and if you care not at all about license terms as we evidently don't when it comes to Mac OS, then it presents no moral quandary to disable its activation annoyances. Is Windows free?
      - pram 5y ago
        There is no license that can be purchased for MacOS. It literally has no cost in any circumstance. This is just tortured sophistry to arrive at the tremendous conclusion that Windows does, and sometimes doesn’t, cost money. Is windows free? "Sometimes!"
- hamburglar 5y ago
  When was the last time you heard of someone actually buying a copy of Windows, though? I've owned a lot of different versions of Windows in the past 30 years, but never paid for a single one.
  - Sophira 5y ago
    I know someone who bought a copy of Windows 10 for their computer, because they asked me to help install it. It was definitely not an OEM thing, and the packaging had a USB drive in it.

wmil 5y ago

> We are all unappreciated beta testers. I've been trying to popularize "gamma testers" for years without much success.

eesmith 5y ago
So have others! Here's InfoWorld from 1994 - https://books.google.com/books?id=gzgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA59&dq=%22gamma+testers%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCj8a3v-r0AhV9QvEDHfLaBoEQ6AF6BAgFEAI#v=onepage&q=%22gamma%20testers%22&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=gzgEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA59&dq=%2... > Several readers used the same term for what they think the industry has made them become: gamma testers. > "Gamma testing is just like beta testing in that you get a product that's too buggy for prime time and you help the vendor iron out the problems," explained one. "The only difference is that now we're bug testing what's supposed to be a shipping product that we paid for. And likely as not, these days they'll try to charge us for the privilege of reporting the bugs we find." Oldest use I could find was from 1983, at https://archive.org/details/sim_micro-marketworld_1983-03-07_6_5/page/n53/mode/2up?q=%22gamma+testers%22 https://archive.org/details/sim_micro-marketworld_1983-03-07... : > Plus, WORDVISION is designed to be "support-free" after the sale, and our unique Pioneer's Club of "gamma testers" is helping insure we live up to that goal. Here's a 2007 use describing a problem with the phrase, from https://archive.org/details/sdtimes184/page/n43/mode/2up?q=%22gamma+tester%22 https://archive.org/details/sdtimes184/page/n43/mode/2up?q=%... > ... at least a decade since I started calling myself an unpaid gamma tester, for example. But people thought that one meant I specialized in displays and monitors...

RileyJames 5y ago

Yea, I’m feeling this. I submitted a bug report, and while there was a lot of “care”, the result was “not a bug, won’t fix”. On the one hand, I can understand that. But on the other, it’s a crappy user experience, and the apple I supported, I’d expect to fix it. It’s why I’d rather support opensource now. As, at least if no one cares to fix it, it can do it myself, or pay someone else to. The bug: the default iOS mail client chokes if you copy and paste an email link into the to, cc or bcc field. Ie: “mail to:test@test.com”. The response was “that’s how links work, that’s not a bug in the client”, and while technically that’s true. The best user experience would be parse out the “mailto:” when pasted into the to,cc,bcc field rather than failing to send the email. And yes, from safari you can select “open in mail” and it will work. But if you need to copy a second mail link to cc, you’re stuffed.

fouc 5y ago
Copy'n'pasting "mailto:test@test.com" into gmail's new mail "to:" field also doesn't magically remove the mailto: part either.
- RileyJames 5y ago
  Ok. Well I’d consider them both subpar experiences. And I think it quite clearly could be better.
smcl 5y ago
Chokes as in, it freezes up or something?
- RileyJames 5y ago
  As in, it doesn’t send the email. And there’s no way to edit out the “mailto:” portion. So the solution is to copy and paste the link into a text editor/notepad, remove the “mailto:” portion and then copy and paste the remaining portion into the mail client to,cc,bcc field. And I think a better solution would be to either: A) automatically parse out the mailto: portion when pasting into the to,cc,bcc field. Or B) prompt the user before doing A. Ie “do you mean to send to test@test.com?”

PostThisTooFast 5y ago

"the latest iOS update introduced a bug that causes the input box to disappear completely on an iMessage thread" That defect has been around for years.

herbst 5y ago

I had a Macbook pro for about 6 months about 5 years ago. I filed afaik 5 bugs, 4 of them for screen related issues. (no external screen without powering the laptop, external screens don't come back after sleep, etc ..) all bugs that have been in the whole series (other colleagues got the same 2500$ beast, with the same issues) Not a single one was answered in the time I worked there. A few got some 'me toos' At the same time I filed several bug reports for the new Gnome desktop that was rolling out and they all got answered, fixed or at least closed with a short answer. It was only a short time I worked in that ecosystem. But as far as it worked out for me, I got zero support for several major bugs. Definitely not what I expected. Definitely not a OS I am willing to spend productive time on.