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Australians love to hype their voting system, not knowing or caring to know it too is fraught with problems, just like this proposed one probably is. That's no
by bedobi 5y ago
Australians love to hype their voting system, not knowing or caring to know it too is fraught with problems, just like this proposed one probably is.
That's not to say the US or UK or what have you systems are better or worse. All voting systems kind of suck and suffer from mathematical and political paradoxes.
- Ar-Curunir 5y agoThere’s no need for fatalism, especially when you admit you haven’t analyzed the protocol’s failure modes.
- Turing_Machine 5y ago> All voting systems kind of suck and suffer from mathematical and political paradoxes. Yes. Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theore... That said, some systems are clearly worse than others.
- ClayShentrup 5y agoArrow's theorem only really applies to social welfare functions not voting methods. You use a utilitarian social welfare function when you calculate Bayesian regret for a voting method. https://www.rangevoting.org/ArrowThm https://www.rangevoting.org/ArrowThm
- bedobi 5y ago> Arrow's impossibility theorem Ah, that's it, thanks, I was looking for it but forgot what it was called. There's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_paradox (and any number of other ones that may or may not even have names)
- gpm 5y agoArrows impossibility theorem only proves things about voting systems where the method of voting is simply ranking the candidates in an order, so it doesn't actually apply to this quadratic voting system. Does anyone happen to know if an analogous theorem does apply to this quadratic voting system?
- ClayShentrup 5y agoQuadratic voting is an extremely irrational idea. https://www.rangevoting.org/MonetizedRV https://www.rangevoting.org/MonetizedRV
- DennisP 5y agoRange voting and approval voting aren't subject to anything similar, according to William Poundstone's book Gaming the Vote. If that's correct then I'd think quadratic voting is the same.
- Turing_Machine 5y agoATW, score voting (which some call range voting) and approval voting both suffer from the defect that a choice that is favored by an absolute majority (which would thus win in a "normal" election) can wind up losing. That wouldn't have to happen very often to lead to a lot of very angry voters.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- notriddle 5y agoAustralia’s system (IRV) doesn’t necessarily elect the Condorcet winner, either, and it hasn’t led to mass revolts.
- bedobi 5y agoWell, you have to be aware of the potential quirks in the system, and Australians are not, they uncritically know their system is infallible and the best.
- dodobirdlord 5y agoHow can approval voting suffer from this defect? Is the idea here that we factor in people who don’t vote for things they actually favor because they’re hoping to avoid tipping the result away from something they favor even more? Or do you mean an election could end up selecting a result that is favored by the majority even though there is a different result that is more favored by a smaller majority?
- paulpauper 5y agoputting science in political science.
- Nursie 5y agoAs a Brit that now lives in Australia, from what I can tell the voting is just better here. With preferential voting you (hopefully) end up with more of a consensus for the winner, rather than purely a representative of the largest minority as with FPTP.
- bedobi 5y agoIt also makes it easier for people to vote for trash parties like One Nation. In other countries people would think twice before voting for small, extremist parties like that lest they waste their vote if the party doesn't make it past the threshold for getting a seat. (this is just one of the many problems I see with the Australian system)
- jackvalentine 5y ago"Stop voting for the wrong people!" is your problem?
- bedobi 5y agoYes! I don't think liberal democracies should tolerate parties and policies that dismantle them. In many European countries people like Pauline Hanson would have been put jail (where she belongs) for hate speech (and probably any number of other things) a long time ago.
- wolverine876 5y ago> That's not to say the US or UK or what have you systems are better or worse. All voting systems kind of suck and suffer from mathematical and political paradoxes. The argument that everything has >0 flaws, therefore everything is the same, is a bit bizarre to find on HN. Is every solution in every category the same? > just like this proposed one probably is Even when we don't know what it is?
- bedobi 5y agothe point is, Australians in particular are very very quick to hype their system and they have a fairly good understanding of the alleged benefits of their system and they get told this over and over throughout their schooling and by the electoral commission but not once have I ever seen any Australian ask themselves if the alleged benefits of their systems are really true in the first place, and even if they are, what the inescapable downsides of their system are it doesn't even occur to them, the question doesn't even make sense to them as for this quadratic one, try the online demo they made at https://www.economist.com/interactives/2021/12/18/quadratic-voting https://www.economist.com/interactives/2021/12/18/quadratic-... it's cool but tbh I would rather have infinite points to spend, at which point you might as well have binary endorse / oppose votes (maybe with an added option abstain) point being that I don't think the intensity of my endorsement of policies to combat climate change should cost anything for my equally intense endorsement of paying reparations for colonialism - I consider both incredibly important and essential policies
- mynameismon 5y agoCorrect link: https://www.economist.com/interactives/2021/12/18/quadratic-voting https://www.economist.com/interactives/2021/12/18/quadratic-...