6 ms·

What does that even mean? The term "woo" is so condescending and useless.

dkersten 5y ago
The way I’ve always heard it used, it basically means “scientific sounding words/sentences that are actually gibberish, used to make something with little or no evidence sound more credible to laypeople“. If you’re in the business of selling laypeople on fancy terms to mislead them, then sure, it’s condescending, but I think condescension is warranted in that case.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
Demand operationalization of “woo”! Otherwise, it’s just another form of self satisfied group think
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- colordrops 5y ago
  Thank you, at least one person here gets what I'm saying. When the definition of "woo" is so vague, it gets applied to things it shouldn't and becomes recursively self-referential itself
dogma1138 5y ago
I guess they mean the “What the bleep do we know?” and CCC (not chaos computer club) crowd
zwkrt 5y ago
Well what’s condescending and useless is the crowd of people that, in absence of any understanding or genuine interest in the subject, use words and phrases from quantum mechanics to enforce their beliefs or sell snake oil to others. I can see the books and blog posts and motivational videos now: “Entangle yourself to your successful universe” “Science proves life is quantum” “What entanglement to life proves about our spiritual path” “
- colordrops 5y ago
  All ideas have more or less merit. Address them individually based on their grounding in facts and evidence rather than a priori bucketing an arbitrary subset of ideas with a label. It's no different than calling people "libtards". You mention "woo" with annoyance before anyone even said anything, indicating a strong bias.
  - zwkrt 5y ago
    Look, it’s just a convenient term for working scientists to use to categorize a group of people who are not worth listening to at all (in the scientific realm). Quantum physics gets a lot of this because it’s spooky but all fields experience some amount of quackery. Think people who send P=NP proofs to universities, “alternate” historians, flat earthers, and the like. Imagine if there were coding boot camps that were entirely based on developing a good vibe with the computer, and didn’t involve learning about how to write code at all. People go in, “learn” something, but then they try to get a coding job and fall flat on their face because they don’t actually know anything. This is exactly the state of quantum physics re: the general public. I would guess as a scientist it would get demoralizing.
    - viscanti 5y ago
      > Imagine if there were coding boot camps that were entirely based on developing a good vibe with the computer From my experience the industry is sorely lacking people who have developed a good vibe with the computer and we can probably trace the root cause of a lot of the major systemic issues we see to that. This boot camp sounds great.
      - krohling 5y ago
        OMG, +2 for this bootcamp. I think the above comment about shroomwater in a camelback applies here.
    - ohyeshedid 5y ago
      > Imagine if there were coding boot camps that were entirely based on developing a good vibe with the computer... Not quite zen cracking, but that's getting closer to the old +ORC ideology.
lisper 5y ago
You pretty much nailed it: "woo" is something that is so useless as to be worthy of condescension when it is presented otherwise (which woo invariably is).
fourtrees 5y ago
People with (often) new age mystical beliefs justify them with unconventional, incompletely understood, or naïve views of QM. Like the belief in the healing effects of crystals due to some quantum effect or that consciousness is generated by quantum effects in neurons. I seriously doubt any quantum mysticism is true, and I'm happy to defer to the physicists to get my woo from QM as in this experiment.
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  Maybe don't tar Penrose with the same brush ?
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Maybe be more specific in what you're referring to?
    - BlueTemplar 5y ago
      > consciousness is generated by quantum effects in neurons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reducti...
  - astrange 5y ago
    I can and I will. “Quantum effects” doesn’t mean magic - things like paint color come from “quantum effects” - but he is using it to mean brains are magic.
  - fourtrees 5y ago
    Penrose, who's probably my favorite living physicist, is far from the only person who's attempted to connect QM to everything mental from consciousness, free will, qualia to telepathy or the efficacy of prayer. QM is a god-of-the-gaps for mental things we don't understand or don't really exist. And it plays that role in plenty of other places. One good reason for not lumping ORR in with crystal healing (beyond the rigor and erudition applied to the theories) is that ORR addresses what most would consider a real mystery in our understanding of the mind (however you define that), while crystal healing addresses something demonstrably false. I'll still contend there's some quantum woo to ORR, but for that reason it's been a brave attempt to further scientific knowledge.
tomrod 5y ago
> The term "woo" is so condescending and useless. This is what makes it so effective of a term, as it accurately describes the activities, behaviors, and ideologies to which it is applied!
- colordrops 5y ago
  Your post is exactly what is wrong here - we haven't even discussed any particular ideology. This is no different from McCarthyism. "They" are out there, and we must not allow them to continue, even though we aren't even talking about a particular person or ideology.
  - tomrod 5y ago
    I categorically reject your slippery slope claim that we can't speak openly and negatively about socially maladaptive group behaviors regarding new age-ism philosophies and ideologies identified as "woo", especially when they use terms of science they misattribute and do not understand. > This is no different from McCarthyism What US Government official are blacklisting actors, politicians, and public officials for practicing new age-ism analogously to what McCarthy did for real and alleged communist sympathizers? None of note. And if there is legislation introduced that bans non-harming practices of belief, let us join arms and fight it together. In case you've read more into my comment or this chain, here is a recap: Here is what you said: >>>> The term "woo" is so condescending and useless. Here is what I said: >>> This is what makes it so effective of a term, as it accurately describes the activities, behaviors, and ideologies to which it is applied! Note: - No "they" - No calls for persecution What you read in my comment is simply an identification that the term "woo" accurately describes people who misapply attributes of quantum behavior to new age claims (and those who accept such attribution), as it is apt as one that describes the uselessness and base superstitiousness of such behavior, activities, and supporting ideologies.

The way I’ve always heard it used, it basically means “scientific sounding words/sentences that are actually gibberish, used to make something with little or no evidence sound more credible to laypeople“. If you’re in the business of selling laypeople on fancy terms to mislead them, then sure, it’s condescending, but I think condescension is warranted in that case.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

Demand operationalization of “woo”! Otherwise, it’s just another form of self satisfied group think

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
colordrops 5y ago
Thank you, at least one person here gets what I'm saying. When the definition of "woo" is so vague, it gets applied to things it shouldn't and becomes recursively self-referential itself

dogma1138 5y ago

I guess they mean the “What the bleep do we know?” and CCC (not chaos computer club) crowd

zwkrt 5y ago

Well what’s condescending and useless is the crowd of people that, in absence of any understanding or genuine interest in the subject, use words and phrases from quantum mechanics to enforce their beliefs or sell snake oil to others. I can see the books and blog posts and motivational videos now: “Entangle yourself to your successful universe” “Science proves life is quantum” “What entanglement to life proves about our spiritual path” “

colordrops 5y ago
All ideas have more or less merit. Address them individually based on their grounding in facts and evidence rather than a priori bucketing an arbitrary subset of ideas with a label. It's no different than calling people "libtards". You mention "woo" with annoyance before anyone even said anything, indicating a strong bias.
- zwkrt 5y ago
  Look, it’s just a convenient term for working scientists to use to categorize a group of people who are not worth listening to at all (in the scientific realm). Quantum physics gets a lot of this because it’s spooky but all fields experience some amount of quackery. Think people who send P=NP proofs to universities, “alternate” historians, flat earthers, and the like. Imagine if there were coding boot camps that were entirely based on developing a good vibe with the computer, and didn’t involve learning about how to write code at all. People go in, “learn” something, but then they try to get a coding job and fall flat on their face because they don’t actually know anything. This is exactly the state of quantum physics re: the general public. I would guess as a scientist it would get demoralizing.
  - viscanti 5y ago
    > Imagine if there were coding boot camps that were entirely based on developing a good vibe with the computer From my experience the industry is sorely lacking people who have developed a good vibe with the computer and we can probably trace the root cause of a lot of the major systemic issues we see to that. This boot camp sounds great.
    - krohling 5y ago
      OMG, +2 for this bootcamp. I think the above comment about shroomwater in a camelback applies here.
  - ohyeshedid 5y ago
    > Imagine if there were coding boot camps that were entirely based on developing a good vibe with the computer... Not quite zen cracking, but that's getting closer to the old +ORC ideology.

lisper 5y ago

You pretty much nailed it: "woo" is something that is so useless as to be worthy of condescension when it is presented otherwise (which woo invariably is).

fourtrees 5y ago

People with (often) new age mystical beliefs justify them with unconventional, incompletely understood, or naïve views of QM. Like the belief in the healing effects of crystals due to some quantum effect or that consciousness is generated by quantum effects in neurons. I seriously doubt any quantum mysticism is true, and I'm happy to defer to the physicists to get my woo from QM as in this experiment.

BlueTemplar 5y ago
Maybe don't tar Penrose with the same brush ?
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Maybe be more specific in what you're referring to?
  - BlueTemplar 5y ago
    > consciousness is generated by quantum effects in neurons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reducti...
- astrange 5y ago
  I can and I will. “Quantum effects” doesn’t mean magic - things like paint color come from “quantum effects” - but he is using it to mean brains are magic.
- fourtrees 5y ago
  Penrose, who's probably my favorite living physicist, is far from the only person who's attempted to connect QM to everything mental from consciousness, free will, qualia to telepathy or the efficacy of prayer. QM is a god-of-the-gaps for mental things we don't understand or don't really exist. And it plays that role in plenty of other places. One good reason for not lumping ORR in with crystal healing (beyond the rigor and erudition applied to the theories) is that ORR addresses what most would consider a real mystery in our understanding of the mind (however you define that), while crystal healing addresses something demonstrably false. I'll still contend there's some quantum woo to ORR, but for that reason it's been a brave attempt to further scientific knowledge.

tomrod 5y ago

> The term "woo" is so condescending and useless. This is what makes it so effective of a term, as it accurately describes the activities, behaviors, and ideologies to which it is applied!

colordrops 5y ago
Your post is exactly what is wrong here - we haven't even discussed any particular ideology. This is no different from McCarthyism. "They" are out there, and we must not allow them to continue, even though we aren't even talking about a particular person or ideology.
- tomrod 5y ago
  I categorically reject your slippery slope claim that we can't speak openly and negatively about socially maladaptive group behaviors regarding new age-ism philosophies and ideologies identified as "woo", especially when they use terms of science they misattribute and do not understand. > This is no different from McCarthyism What US Government official are blacklisting actors, politicians, and public officials for practicing new age-ism analogously to what McCarthy did for real and alleged communist sympathizers? None of note. And if there is legislation introduced that bans non-harming practices of belief, let us join arms and fight it together. In case you've read more into my comment or this chain, here is a recap: Here is what you said: >>>> The term "woo" is so condescending and useless. Here is what I said: >>> This is what makes it so effective of a term, as it accurately describes the activities, behaviors, and ideologies to which it is applied! Note: - No "they" - No calls for persecution What you read in my comment is simply an identification that the term "woo" accurately describes people who misapply attributes of quantum behavior to new age claims (and those who accept such attribution), as it is apt as one that describes the uselessness and base superstitiousness of such behavior, activities, and supporting ideologies.