5 ms·

It's long, long overdue. That said a national ID scheme has long been opposed by a vocal part of the Christian population in the states. It's association with t

by jjcm 5y ago

It's long, long overdue. That said a national ID scheme has long been opposed by a vocal part of the Christian population in the states. It's association with the new testament's prophesy of the mark of the beast prevents many lawmakers from pushing forward a proposal, especially since 65% of Americans in 2019 identified as having a belief in some variety of Christianity[0]. The obvious reality here is that in the wake of no proper national identification system, social security numbers have been used instead. It's not a question of whether or not we have a national ID, it's really just a question of whether we have a functional one or an inadequate one. Nonetheless politicians would likely be committing suicide with their constituents in some districts if they were to support a push towards a better system. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20has%20been,26%25%20of%20the%20total%20population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States#....

ghaff 5y ago
>social security numbers have been used instead Historically that was sort of the case. I'd argue today that we mostly rely on state-issued IDs (especially but not necessarily driver's licenses) which are now overlaid with RealID requirements. As a practical matter it's probably indistinguishable from what a federally-issued ID would be and I'm mostly content with not adding any more layers of identity verification than are really necessary. I'd probably oppose a push for a broadly required federal ID--although I have a passport (and a global entry card).
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  Some states allow use of SSNs for drivers license numbers.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    It’s generally decreased over time though.
- OrsonSmelles 5y ago
  >RealID requirements This doesn't invalidate your point, but man it irritates me how many states have chosen to retain a noncompliant ID tier in order to avoid eating costs or raising fees. At least my state offers a full EDL so there's some added value, but it's absurd that the 'default' local ID isn't adequate for domestic air travel.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    There are non-trivial documentation requirements for RealID though. I had to go back in a second time. If someone has no need to fly it’s probably reasonable to offer them a lower bar.
  - ahazred8ta 5y ago
    There's a surprising number of people who do not possess a birth certificate document. Their parents lost it, it got thrown out during an eviction, etc, etc. I've witnessed people at DMV stations who brought in their original birth certificates, but the embossed notary stamp had flattened over the years. It takes time and money to get a replacement. If the non-enhanced IDs didn't exist, these people couldn't get a state id card.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      I have a passport so it's sort of academic, but I'm not sure if I could lay my hands on my birth certificate. I'd certainly have to look through some file cabinets to see if I could find it and who knows if it's an original or not. For people without a passport, it's extremely easy to have lost a birth certificate at some point over the years. And I honestly have no idea how easy or hard getting a new one issued is from some potentially far away city or town.
  - masonic 5y ago
    >it irritates me how many states have chosen to retain a noncompliant ID tier in order to avoid eating costs or raising fees That's not why. States like California have dragged their feet for a decade with RealID compliance because they want to keep IDs for people in the US illegally indistinguishable from those for citizens, permanent residents, and others here legally.
AnthonyMouse 5y ago
I don't understand why people think religion is the main reason to oppose this. The main reason to oppose this is that if you had a low friction government ID system, surveillance capitalism would then require you to present your ID to do anything whatsoever and all privacy would disappear forever.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  But we already have that? If you pay with a credit card, have an address on file, or use a state-issued ID (drivers license), I don't see how that would be worse.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    Credit cards are already a privacy catastrophe for anything where you have to pay money, but people will push back if you demand one for anything where you're not supposed to be paying anything because people are rightly wary of being charged when they ought not to be. Anyone who gives their credit card number for a "free trial" learns that the hard way and then becomes appropriately cynical. A state-issued ID generally doesn't work over the internet, which is good. Some of them can be read electronically in person, which is already being abused to a limited extent and should be gotten rid of. Which is the general response to your concern: "This is already a problem" means we need to go the other way and address that so that doesn't happen anymore, not intensify the problem and set it in concrete so it can never be fixed. Centralized identity is a design flaw. Your bank needs to know if you're authorized to withdraw from your account, which is why you have a bank card. Your email provider needs to know if you're allowed to access your email account, which is why you have an email password. Your apartment building needs to know if you're authorized to enter, which is why you have an access card. What we don't need, and should not have, is a single primary key binding all of these things together so it can be correlated in a single database.
- pjc50 5y ago
  As someone who campaigned against UK ID cards 20 years ago, we failed to realise that the ID requirements could be imposed without providing the ID scheme. Since then the UK has imposed ID (technically "proof of right of residence", but that kind of has to be ID) on having a bank account, having a job, and both buying and renting houses. All without having a coherent ID scheme other than passport or driving license.

by jjcm 5y ago

ghaff 5y ago

>social security numbers have been used instead Historically that was sort of the case. I'd argue today that we mostly rely on state-issued IDs (especially but not necessarily driver's licenses) which are now overlaid with RealID requirements. As a practical matter it's probably indistinguishable from what a federally-issued ID would be and I'm mostly content with not adding any more layers of identity verification than are really necessary. I'd probably oppose a push for a broadly required federal ID--although I have a passport (and a global entry card).

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Some states allow use of SSNs for drivers license numbers.
- ghaff 5y ago
  It’s generally decreased over time though.
OrsonSmelles 5y ago
>RealID requirements This doesn't invalidate your point, but man it irritates me how many states have chosen to retain a noncompliant ID tier in order to avoid eating costs or raising fees. At least my state offers a full EDL so there's some added value, but it's absurd that the 'default' local ID isn't adequate for domestic air travel.
- ghaff 5y ago
  There are non-trivial documentation requirements for RealID though. I had to go back in a second time. If someone has no need to fly it’s probably reasonable to offer them a lower bar.
- ahazred8ta 5y ago
  There's a surprising number of people who do not possess a birth certificate document. Their parents lost it, it got thrown out during an eviction, etc, etc. I've witnessed people at DMV stations who brought in their original birth certificates, but the embossed notary stamp had flattened over the years. It takes time and money to get a replacement. If the non-enhanced IDs didn't exist, these people couldn't get a state id card.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I have a passport so it's sort of academic, but I'm not sure if I could lay my hands on my birth certificate. I'd certainly have to look through some file cabinets to see if I could find it and who knows if it's an original or not. For people without a passport, it's extremely easy to have lost a birth certificate at some point over the years. And I honestly have no idea how easy or hard getting a new one issued is from some potentially far away city or town.
- masonic 5y ago
  >it irritates me how many states have chosen to retain a noncompliant ID tier in order to avoid eating costs or raising fees That's not why. States like California have dragged their feet for a decade with RealID compliance because they want to keep IDs for people in the US illegally indistinguishable from those for citizens, permanent residents, and others here legally.

AnthonyMouse 5y ago

I don't understand why people think religion is the main reason to oppose this. The main reason to oppose this is that if you had a low friction government ID system, surveillance capitalism would then require you to present your ID to do anything whatsoever and all privacy would disappear forever.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
But we already have that? If you pay with a credit card, have an address on file, or use a state-issued ID (drivers license), I don't see how that would be worse.
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  Credit cards are already a privacy catastrophe for anything where you have to pay money, but people will push back if you demand one for anything where you're not supposed to be paying anything because people are rightly wary of being charged when they ought not to be. Anyone who gives their credit card number for a "free trial" learns that the hard way and then becomes appropriately cynical. A state-issued ID generally doesn't work over the internet, which is good. Some of them can be read electronically in person, which is already being abused to a limited extent and should be gotten rid of. Which is the general response to your concern: "This is already a problem" means we need to go the other way and address that so that doesn't happen anymore, not intensify the problem and set it in concrete so it can never be fixed. Centralized identity is a design flaw. Your bank needs to know if you're authorized to withdraw from your account, which is why you have a bank card. Your email provider needs to know if you're allowed to access your email account, which is why you have an email password. Your apartment building needs to know if you're authorized to enter, which is why you have an access card. What we don't need, and should not have, is a single primary key binding all of these things together so it can be correlated in a single database.
pjc50 5y ago
As someone who campaigned against UK ID cards 20 years ago, we failed to realise that the ID requirements could be imposed without providing the ID scheme. Since then the UK has imposed ID (technically "proof of right of residence", but that kind of has to be ID) on having a bank account, having a job, and both buying and renting houses. All without having a coherent ID scheme other than passport or driving license.