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I don't think this line of dismissal necessarily fits. If we ended up having to expand physics to include some new (today seen as mystical) property of the univ

I don't think this line of dismissal necessarily fits. If we ended up having to expand physics to include some new (today seen as mystical) property of the universe, then you are essentially wrong here. With QM (which I doubt is related to consciousness) we had to add unmeasurable quantum phase to everything and accept certain previously-"nonphysical" new properties of systems. Similarly with other revolutionaly theories. Magic can be disproven by explaining the phemonen with a conventional physical theory.

chermi 5y ago
I don't think I follow? What am I dismissing? I don't quite understand QM analogy. QM arose to explain new observation from more detailed measurements. Consciousness and intelligence and all things brain have been (to an extent) known 'properties' and difficult to explain (from first-principles) for quite some time. The more we probe, we answer some questions, and in the process reveal some more detail, leading to more detailed questions. My qualm is that nowhere along this trajectory have I ever seen any need to invoke magic. It's a complex, many-body system with lots of noise, many relevant interacting length and time-scales that are difficult to cleanly separate, model, observe and probe. It's hard, but it seems we're making progress. Maybe it will take CERN, LIGO or ISS scale endeavors, I don't know. It's not all similar, IMO, to how QM arose. But I'm not a neuroscientist nor a historian of science.
- simplestats 5y ago
  What progress is there towards the "hard problem" of consciousness? Even a oversimplified approximation akin to the Rutherford atom? Research in the area is considered fringe anyway, as no one has any hope a researcher will get anywhere. QM required that we accept a new phase property of matter which cannot be observed even in principle, and which causes counter-intuitive experimental outcomes that require contradictory physical explanations. This remains unsolved, physics simple sucked it up and moved on using it. The Copenhagen Interpretation essentially says some questions are not "askable" (e.g., what is the state of an unobserved electron), and observation instantantaneously changes vast-universe-wide systems via collapse of the wavefunction (pretty magical in the opinion of many). The many-worlds interpretation is even kookier, though much more intuitive, and is gaining popularity lately. If parallel universes and "spooky action ata distance" (quoting Einstein) is not magic to you then what does it take?

chermi 5y ago

I don't think I follow? What am I dismissing? I don't quite understand QM analogy. QM arose to explain new observation from more detailed measurements. Consciousness and intelligence and all things brain have been (to an extent) known 'properties' and difficult to explain (from first-principles) for quite some time. The more we probe, we answer some questions, and in the process reveal some more detail, leading to more detailed questions. My qualm is that nowhere along this trajectory have I ever seen any need to invoke magic. It's a complex, many-body system with lots of noise, many relevant interacting length and time-scales that are difficult to cleanly separate, model, observe and probe. It's hard, but it seems we're making progress. Maybe it will take CERN, LIGO or ISS scale endeavors, I don't know. It's not all similar, IMO, to how QM arose. But I'm not a neuroscientist nor a historian of science.

simplestats 5y ago
What progress is there towards the "hard problem" of consciousness? Even a oversimplified approximation akin to the Rutherford atom? Research in the area is considered fringe anyway, as no one has any hope a researcher will get anywhere. QM required that we accept a new phase property of matter which cannot be observed even in principle, and which causes counter-intuitive experimental outcomes that require contradictory physical explanations. This remains unsolved, physics simple sucked it up and moved on using it. The Copenhagen Interpretation essentially says some questions are not "askable" (e.g., what is the state of an unobserved electron), and observation instantantaneously changes vast-universe-wide systems via collapse of the wavefunction (pretty magical in the opinion of many). The many-worlds interpretation is even kookier, though much more intuitive, and is gaining popularity lately. If parallel universes and "spooky action ata distance" (quoting Einstein) is not magic to you then what does it take?