14 ms·

Tesla tells customers it will not honor retroactive Full Self-Driving pricing

73 points by baskethead 5y ago

nashashmi 5y ago
Self driving should be pay as you go. Either on demand, daily, monthly or annually. Because the number of frequent updates is far too much and costly.
- ethanwillis 5y ago
  And then the clock strikes and your car crashes.
- Imnimo 5y ago
  Just have a taxi-style meter that clicks up every second your hands aren't on the wheel.
- ChildOfChaos 5y ago
  Pay as you go sounds stupid. So you buy a car and then have to pay to use it? It should be a feature that comes with the car, one off payment, you shouldn’t need to pay a subscription just because they didn’t have it fully ready before you bought it.
  - tartrate 5y ago
    You can still use the car and drive it yourself. This would be paying monthly for the car to be able to drive itself. Just like you have to pay for "premium connectivity" in Teslas, i.e. internet access.
    - throwaway946513 5y ago
      Just like the 'subscription' remote start for physical key fobs from Toyota. Similar to the 'heated seat' subscription from BMW - or the annual subscription for AppleCar play to work with your headunit. Porsche charges for 'dynamic lighting plus' and 'active lane keep assist' as a subscription. Cadillac charges monthly for 'super cruise', Tesla Autopilot clone. Yes, you can still use the car, and drive it yourself - but the problem is how anti-consumer and rent seeking the behaviors are of these companies. The problem isn't limited to Tesla.
      - tartrate 5y ago
        I'm having trouble deciding which one is the most stupid out of those. I think I'm going to go with the heated seat subscription, wow.
- atoav 5y ago
  So should your toaster, your dishwasher, your smart lock, your light switch, your insulin pump. Usually it was anarchists who proclaimed that ownership equals theft — no we go to the other extreme, with corporate slowly trying to turn owners into renters. Instead of selling you something they try to become your landlord.
  - nashashmi 5y ago
    Anything requiring updates like your computer or phone has a cost of maintenance not covered by the traditional models of retail.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Corporate isn't really trying to turn owners into renters. Instead they intend to be the owners :) Also anarchists never claimed ownership was theft, they claimed that owning something you're not using is theft.
    - atoav 5y ago
      > Also anarchists never claimed ownership was theft, they claimed that owning something you're not using is theft. I did a literal translation of the German "Eigentum ist Diebstahl" which literally translates to "ownership is theft". Of course anarchists meant that the theft is that you deprive others of the chance to make use of tools, objects etc. that could be put to use better collectively as you mentioned.
- toss1 5y ago
  Self-driving (assuming it was really full Level-5 self driving) is about the ONLY feature that I'd want on-demand, or consider a legitimate use for such an ongoing payment scheme. * The car is still perfectly useful without it * It genuinely needs ongoing updates * There are good use cases for occasional use - I'd rarely use it, unless I was coming home very late & tired, or really needed to work and not drive. Other features, like Toyota's recent announcement [0] that they are going to charge $8/month for your key fob to remote start your car, or BMW's attempt [1] to charge for heated seats are merely extractive ploys. This move of everything to unnecessary connected and subscription models is just an outrage. Sure, some services genuinely need connection, but most can be engineered without it if there is a will to do so. Otherwise, do't do it - it's a trap! [0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscription-remote-start-key-fob https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscrip... [1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-heated-seats-and-more-as-a-subscription-no-really https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-...
manuelabeledo 5y ago
And this is why you shouldn't pay for pre-releases.
petree 5y ago
Sounds like great customer service from Tesla, the most valuable car company in the world... Hopefully people can at least recover their money easily.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Sounds like some mid level manager looking for a way to boost their numbers without giving consideration to how this change impacts the public perception of the company or even any potential legal complications.
- haliskerbas 5y ago
  Usually you file a ticket with legal / have a 30 minute conversation, get a sign off, and go along your merry way.
makerofspoons 5y ago
When are they going to rip the bandaid off that they aren't going to produce the Cybertruck? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37979446/tesla-cybertruck-specs-removed/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37979446/tesla-cybertruck...
fxtentacle 5y ago
It's easy to prevent this kind of bad behavior by introducing a law to make it illegal. Reading those stories from the EU, I wonder why consumers in the US so rarely fight for their rights. Even the UK has its Consumer Rights Act [1] which explicitly forbids price increases for pre-orders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Act_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Act_2015
- drekk 5y ago
  I think it's important to note American consumers are fighting for these, like the right to repair law recently. Unfortunately, we live in a "representative republic" that only had universal suffrage (on paper) in the 60s. The average consumer doesn't really have an ability to affect political change given the financial interests at play in our government
- dominotw 5y ago
  > consumers in the US so rarely fight for their rights we belive in markets weeding out the bad players. Laws are too inflexible and slow moving compared to markets.
  - cinntaile 5y ago
    And then at the same time the corporate lobbyists are donating money to politicians so that the markets will sort it out?
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    >we believe the propaganda that tells us markets weed out the bad players Fixed. We need regulations not more market freedom. Market freedom is how we got PFAS and plastic in the oceans. And the regulations need to be effective, not gutted by market lobbyists
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - drekk 5y ago
    I don't know why you're speaking for me here? Laws are made by lobbyists purchasing government seats in your "free market". It's laughable you think consumers have an impact on the passage of laws or their contents
renzo88 5y ago
I understand that tesla is trendy, and open about "not having everything figured out", but I get the impression that this is a lot of tesla drivers' first luxury car. If BMW or Mercedes pulled the things Tesla does at the same cadence, their community would riot.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  That's the difference between selling to inexperienced hipsters vs. selling to established CEOs and their lawyers. Also, BMW is quite openly mocking Tesla's build quality by now, which in my impression worked well for their marketing in the EU. Oliver Zipse, BMW: "Tesla isn’t quite part of the premium segment. They are growing very strongly via price reductions. We would not do that since you have got to last the distance. Where we differ is our standard on quality and reliability. We have different aspirations on customer satisfaction." https://insideevs.com/news/547029/bmw-ceo-tesla-not-premium/ https://insideevs.com/news/547029/bmw-ceo-tesla-not-premium/
  - SigmundA 5y ago
    Ill leave this here, pretty ridiculous for this price point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=horgq-_8Gys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=horgq-_8Gys
    - mey 5y ago
      I do like that someone has taken the idea of the Model Y deliver inspection list and made an iOS app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/inspect-t/id1521758578 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/inspect-t/id1521758578
    - Jyaif 5y ago
      Eventually they'll figure it out, this is not rocket science.
      - mixedCase 5y ago
        According to the video, it looks like this specific problem has been like this for a while and Tesla does not care. Reliability and QA is the point everyone has been mocking them about for years now, yet the designs remain unchanged.
penjelly 5y ago
this offer gave me wicked FOMO when i wanted to purchase a tesla 2 years ago. knowing i could reserve and save myself 2.5-5k+ and "owning anything other then a tesla is financially insane" pushed me hard to to purchase one. Kinda glad i didnt
monster2control 5y ago
That’s some fucking bullshit!
sdze 5y ago
Buy a complete car for the price of fsd and be happy.

73 points by baskethead 5y ago

Self driving should be pay as you go. Either on demand, daily, monthly or annually. Because the number of frequent updates is far too much and costly.

ethanwillis 5y ago
And then the clock strikes and your car crashes.
Imnimo 5y ago
Just have a taxi-style meter that clicks up every second your hands aren't on the wheel.
ChildOfChaos 5y ago
Pay as you go sounds stupid. So you buy a car and then have to pay to use it? It should be a feature that comes with the car, one off payment, you shouldn’t need to pay a subscription just because they didn’t have it fully ready before you bought it.
- tartrate 5y ago
  You can still use the car and drive it yourself. This would be paying monthly for the car to be able to drive itself. Just like you have to pay for "premium connectivity" in Teslas, i.e. internet access.
  - throwaway946513 5y ago
    Just like the 'subscription' remote start for physical key fobs from Toyota. Similar to the 'heated seat' subscription from BMW - or the annual subscription for AppleCar play to work with your headunit. Porsche charges for 'dynamic lighting plus' and 'active lane keep assist' as a subscription. Cadillac charges monthly for 'super cruise', Tesla Autopilot clone. Yes, you can still use the car, and drive it yourself - but the problem is how anti-consumer and rent seeking the behaviors are of these companies. The problem isn't limited to Tesla.
    - tartrate 5y ago
      I'm having trouble deciding which one is the most stupid out of those. I think I'm going to go with the heated seat subscription, wow.
atoav 5y ago
So should your toaster, your dishwasher, your smart lock, your light switch, your insulin pump. Usually it was anarchists who proclaimed that ownership equals theft — no we go to the other extreme, with corporate slowly trying to turn owners into renters. Instead of selling you something they try to become your landlord.
- nashashmi 5y ago
  Anything requiring updates like your computer or phone has a cost of maintenance not covered by the traditional models of retail.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Corporate isn't really trying to turn owners into renters. Instead they intend to be the owners :) Also anarchists never claimed ownership was theft, they claimed that owning something you're not using is theft.
  - atoav 5y ago
    > Also anarchists never claimed ownership was theft, they claimed that owning something you're not using is theft. I did a literal translation of the German "Eigentum ist Diebstahl" which literally translates to "ownership is theft". Of course anarchists meant that the theft is that you deprive others of the chance to make use of tools, objects etc. that could be put to use better collectively as you mentioned.
toss1 5y ago
Self-driving (assuming it was really full Level-5 self driving) is about the ONLY feature that I'd want on-demand, or consider a legitimate use for such an ongoing payment scheme. * The car is still perfectly useful without it * It genuinely needs ongoing updates * There are good use cases for occasional use - I'd rarely use it, unless I was coming home very late & tired, or really needed to work and not drive. Other features, like Toyota's recent announcement [0] that they are going to charge $8/month for your key fob to remote start your car, or BMW's attempt [1] to charge for heated seats are merely extractive ploys. This move of everything to unnecessary connected and subscription models is just an outrage. Sure, some services genuinely need connection, but most can be engineered without it if there is a will to do so. Otherwise, do't do it - it's a trap! [0] https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscription-remote-start-key-fob https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscrip... [1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-heated-seats-and-more-as-a-subscription-no-really https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/bmw-is-planning-to-sell-...

manuelabeledo 5y ago

And this is why you shouldn't pay for pre-releases.

petree 5y ago

Sounds like great customer service from Tesla, the most valuable car company in the world... Hopefully people can at least recover their money easily.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Sounds like some mid level manager looking for a way to boost their numbers without giving consideration to how this change impacts the public perception of the company or even any potential legal complications.

haliskerbas 5y ago
Usually you file a ticket with legal / have a 30 minute conversation, get a sign off, and go along your merry way.

makerofspoons 5y ago

When are they going to rip the bandaid off that they aren't going to produce the Cybertruck? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37979446/tesla-cybertruck-specs-removed/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37979446/tesla-cybertruck...

fxtentacle 5y ago

It's easy to prevent this kind of bad behavior by introducing a law to make it illegal. Reading those stories from the EU, I wonder why consumers in the US so rarely fight for their rights. Even the UK has its Consumer Rights Act [1] which explicitly forbids price increases for pre-orders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Act_2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Act_2015

drekk 5y ago
I think it's important to note American consumers are fighting for these, like the right to repair law recently. Unfortunately, we live in a "representative republic" that only had universal suffrage (on paper) in the 60s. The average consumer doesn't really have an ability to affect political change given the financial interests at play in our government
dominotw 5y ago
> consumers in the US so rarely fight for their rights we belive in markets weeding out the bad players. Laws are too inflexible and slow moving compared to markets.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  And then at the same time the corporate lobbyists are donating money to politicians so that the markets will sort it out?
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  >we believe the propaganda that tells us markets weed out the bad players Fixed. We need regulations not more market freedom. Market freedom is how we got PFAS and plastic in the oceans. And the regulations need to be effective, not gutted by market lobbyists
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- drekk 5y ago
  I don't know why you're speaking for me here? Laws are made by lobbyists purchasing government seats in your "free market". It's laughable you think consumers have an impact on the passage of laws or their contents

renzo88 5y ago

I understand that tesla is trendy, and open about "not having everything figured out", but I get the impression that this is a lot of tesla drivers' first luxury car. If BMW or Mercedes pulled the things Tesla does at the same cadence, their community would riot.

fxtentacle 5y ago
That's the difference between selling to inexperienced hipsters vs. selling to established CEOs and their lawyers. Also, BMW is quite openly mocking Tesla's build quality by now, which in my impression worked well for their marketing in the EU. Oliver Zipse, BMW: "Tesla isn’t quite part of the premium segment. They are growing very strongly via price reductions. We would not do that since you have got to last the distance. Where we differ is our standard on quality and reliability. We have different aspirations on customer satisfaction." https://insideevs.com/news/547029/bmw-ceo-tesla-not-premium/ https://insideevs.com/news/547029/bmw-ceo-tesla-not-premium/
- SigmundA 5y ago
  Ill leave this here, pretty ridiculous for this price point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=horgq-_8Gys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=horgq-_8Gys
  - mey 5y ago
    I do like that someone has taken the idea of the Model Y deliver inspection list and made an iOS app. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/inspect-t/id1521758578 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/inspect-t/id1521758578
  - Jyaif 5y ago
    Eventually they'll figure it out, this is not rocket science.
    - mixedCase 5y ago
      According to the video, it looks like this specific problem has been like this for a while and Tesla does not care. Reliability and QA is the point everyone has been mocking them about for years now, yet the designs remain unchanged.

penjelly 5y ago

this offer gave me wicked FOMO when i wanted to purchase a tesla 2 years ago. knowing i could reserve and save myself 2.5-5k+ and "owning anything other then a tesla is financially insane" pushed me hard to to purchase one. Kinda glad i didnt

monster2control 5y ago

That’s some fucking bullshit!

sdze 5y ago

Buy a complete car for the price of fsd and be happy.