10 ms·

Why 'Long Rituals' Matter

127 points by anarbadalov 5y ago

h2odragon 5y ago
Having killed the churches, we gotta figure out what actual services they provided to society and re-implement them somehow... We might could have thought about that before killing the churches, right? but that would have meant a crack in the "all religion is evil" facade of New Atheism and that religion tolerated no deviance so here we are. Related: asking "where are the cults?" today is like asking "where's the rain" at the bottom of the Mediterranean after Gibraltar broke: we have manifested Babylon and are giving it teeth and jackboots.
- Fellshard 5y ago
  The presumption that churches are purely utilitarian is going to start you off with a large swathe of options cut off.
- analog31 5y ago
  On the other hand, churches could have figured that out before killing the churches too. The New Atheists didn't force my church to go "all in" on the culture war.
- quinnjh 5y ago
  I had a laugh when I read an article about therapists concerned about mental health epidemic saying "we should have a secretary or someone who can give a daily address" I guess most of the graduates of todays clinical programs are trained well in doublespeak and dont understand the seperation of church and state. But sure give me the "government appointed mindstate of the day" since its more "free" than the "opression" of religion...
  - kleer001 5y ago
    I guess lots of people are coming up against the wall where freedom = fun ends and freedom = chaos begins.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  > We might could have thought about that before killing the churches, right? Religious trama is a thing. So my vote is no. Better to stop the harm and magical thinking right away. Perhaps after a new generation has grown up without all the baggage they can more objectively evaluate such things.
  - mewse-hn 5y ago
    Historically, the village church wasn't just about worshipping the sky father and shunning non-believers. It was the original social safety net and the congregation would support people who were experiencing hardship. The tribe would come together for births / marriages / deaths. By rejecting all religion and vacating churches we've sort of thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We've damaged everyone's need for belonging and increased loneliness. Secular movements to restore a sense of community would be welcomed IMO (there are articles about how local mcdonald's have become gathering places in small american towns, surely this isn't ideal)
    - JetAlone 5y ago
      In Ronald's Name, why are you denouncing the McFaithful?
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      > Historically, the village church wasn't just about worshipping the sky father and shunning non-believers. It was the original social safety net and the congregation would support people who were experiencing hardship. So because charity in the past had these massive strings attached in the past today we should do what exactly? Modern social safety nets are more widely available and free from guilt trips, controlling busybodies, and harmful superstitions. > By rejecting all religion and vacating churches we've sort of thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We've damaged everyone's need for belonging and increased loneliness. IME far more emotional and physical harm was done by centuries of religion than this brief interm period between when they've been thrown off and the establishment of saner institutions and memes. McDonalds may not be the picture of healthy food options, yet as an established at least they don't encourage shaming or ostracizing people for being different. A relatively clean, dry, and welcoming place to meet isn't a bad thing.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  I asked a born again Christian what a cult was when I was a teenager. He said a cult is where people worship a man as though he was God. I silently filled in the next sentence in my head: "...but Christianity isn't a cult, because Jesus really was God..." Which is not to claim that Christianity is exactly the same as all the cults it won out over...but the differences can't be nearly as obvious as they seem in hindsight.
  - NateEag 5y ago
    In every cult I know of, the worshipped man is physically present to benefit from the worship and control the followers. Christianity didn't really have that, ever, even if you take the Gospels as sober, rigorous history. They claim that Jesus ascended to heaven a few weeks after his resurrection. So, I think that's actually a significant differentiator.
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      In my last sentence above, I was thinking more of cults in Roman times that were competitors, before Christianity took over. Modern cults that I've heard of are different.
      - NateEag 5y ago
        Gotcha, makes sense. I can't claim to know much about 1st-century cults.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - eloisius 5y ago
      Christ An Sang-Hong isn’t around to benefit from his followers, but somehow he’s still the Korean reincarnation of Jesus to many people.
    - andrepd 5y ago
      They said "the cults Christianity won over", so we're not talking about modern televangelists or heaven's gate here.
- fnands 5y ago
  > Having killed the churches, we gotta figure out what actual services they provided to society and re-implement them somehow. Well, I was with you on the first sentence, the rest not so much. But ignoring that, I do believe there is some good that (some) churches do, and it's a shame to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
ve55 5y ago
relevant reading that you're likely to enjoy if you enjoyed this post: https://meltingasphalt.com/doesnt-matter-warm-fuzzies/ https://meltingasphalt.com/doesnt-matter-warm-fuzzies/
- benwills 5y ago
  I haven't enjoyed/learned from a blog post like that in years. Thank you for sharing that.
- notriddle 5y ago
  This is much better than the OP.
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  There are anthropologists and sociologists out there. In case someone is interested in a more nuanced perspective than this “warm fuzzies” from a random MIT grad technologist.
  - d0mine 5y ago
    The irony: "warm fuzzies" is exactly how one could describe what anthropologist and sociologist do. If the disciplines acquired some rigor without me noticing it, please, do link to the corresponding studies that are not "just-so" stories.
munificent 5y ago
I seemed to have missed the part in the article where the author explains why long rituals matter. If you want an answer, I think it's because they help us cope with death. By participating a ritual that predates us and outlive us, we feel like our actions help maintain something that will still be there when we are gone. We commune with the ritual to be part of something bigger and longer-lived than ourselves.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- neltnerb 5y ago
  Events to encourage social cohesion seem like an obviously good thing to me, and having them annually seems to be very helpful for people in consciously experiencing the passage of time. Grieving, spending a moment looking forward, stuff like that. But some data would have been neat.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    I'm not fond of religion, wasn't raised in it but you know religion wars, scandals, etc. But one day I realized that a lot of 'modern life' was being laid on a couch alone watching low level distraction and ads. Suddenly, the idea of sitting with you neighbors listening to latin spells from a wiser (allegedly) person felt like quality time.
    - andrepd 5y ago
      We're definitely missing a "secular religion", as an alternative to the preposterous and regressive superstitions that billions partake in.
      - agumonkey 5y ago
        few ideas: i guess we won't go to religion but maybe groupism (just being together) also i often think climate change will force that on us, less means and more challenges => deeper social link (unless violent political structures win first)
jltsiren 5y ago
Traditions and rituals emerge naturally in any community that lasts long enough. At least if you let them emerge instead of trying to create them deliberately. Traditional universities are full of rituals, because they are among the oldest secular institutions still in existence. For example, I got my doctoral sword and hat in an elaborate multi-day ceremony in 2014, and I will be invited to participate again in 2064 if I live long enough.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gearhart 5y ago
  Perhaps, or perhaps it's the traditions and rituals that allow the community to last so long.
avgcorrection 5y ago
This is amazing. Less sophisticated atheists would share memes about how the Dark Ages was a literal time of scientific backwardsness in the Middle Ages caused by Christianity (look at this graph!). But some robotmen[1] eventually suspended their (dis)belief for long enough to get the idea that there might be some reason why people have followed traditions (i.e. not just label it as irrationality). And some even take the brave step into whatever pagan (relatively speaking: backwards) ritual might be going on next door. And they still manage to keep their robot qualities: the ritual’s benefits are “pro-social” and promote “the belief in community”. (One can forgive this robot for not just going full neuroscientist and just saying “oxycotin”.) And they even start their own little clubs and hangouts which are labeled <common adjective>ist, like “people who are rational and think long term”. Of course these little clubs are firmly rooted in some blogosphere and have no connection to any real traditions out there. Maybe they will indeed end up being embedded in some tradition somewhere, where they will ritualistically get to practice pro-socialness, belief-in-community, etc. (Emphasis on ritual.) All these efforts are commendable in that they are very sincere in their efforts to find some actual human meaning out there. (I guess that’s called meta-modernist, or meta-something or other…) Which is a step beyond the postmodernist posers. [1] The robotmen and atheists simply overlap somewhat. This is about the “rationalist” types, not about secular people.
twic 5y ago
The strongest theory about the origin of the big horse is that it was an advert for a horse shop. Maybe we can form more rituals around great advertisements from ancient times. Let's start greeting each other on the phone with "wazzaaaap".
nojs 5y ago
> the consumption of Kentucky Fried Christmas in Japan Is this true, or is it a submarine [1]? I asked a Japanese friend who has never heard of it. 1. http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- asciimike 5y ago
  I was also skeptical until I stood next to a statue of the Colonel, dressed in a Santa suit, outside a KFC in Akihabara (photo proof available on request). I agree it's probably mostly clever marketing, but they definitely do lean into it over there too.
  - JetAlone 5y ago
    I have a photo of him too.
- lelandfe 5y ago
  https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-japanese-christmas https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-japanese-chris... https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20161216-why-japan-celebrates-christmas-with-kfc https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20161216-why-japan-cele... Definitely not just PR. Also - both great reads.
taurusnoises 5y ago
I just can't with long-termism and any idea that humans are somehow deserving of more time on the planet, bc, wow! Doing so good so far!
- santoshalper 5y ago
  Compared to what?
- culi 5y ago
  Long termism doesn't have to be just increased lifespans. The concept of "double death" might be helpful here. Death of a human might be when a human's heart stops. But their double death might be the last time someone says their name or the last time some important idea of theirs gets reproduced (or stops being reproducible, like if the last copy of an important artwork they made gets destroyed). The death of thousands of beetles can happen, but when the ecosystem they rely on to reproduce gets damaged to the point where it can't recuperate, that might be called their double death
- inkblotuniverse 5y ago
  Yes, they are.
bobthechef 5y ago
W.r.t. rituals, well, yes, they're signs, sensible signs. Human beings communicate through sensible signs. All cultures have ritual. The more important the think communicated, the more we need special and extraordinary words and gestures to match it. The exterior sign signifies an interior meaning or interior act. I don't understand the categorical revulsion some have to ritual (who themselves participate in rituals, probably without realizing it). You could dislike or detest particular rituals (the odious or absurd kinds most certainly), but not ritual in general.

127 points by anarbadalov 5y ago

Having killed the churches, we gotta figure out what actual services they provided to society and re-implement them somehow... We might could have thought about that before killing the churches, right? but that would have meant a crack in the "all religion is evil" facade of New Atheism and that religion tolerated no deviance so here we are. Related: asking "where are the cults?" today is like asking "where's the rain" at the bottom of the Mediterranean after Gibraltar broke: we have manifested Babylon and are giving it teeth and jackboots.

Fellshard 5y ago
The presumption that churches are purely utilitarian is going to start you off with a large swathe of options cut off.
analog31 5y ago
On the other hand, churches could have figured that out before killing the churches too. The New Atheists didn't force my church to go "all in" on the culture war.
quinnjh 5y ago
I had a laugh when I read an article about therapists concerned about mental health epidemic saying "we should have a secretary or someone who can give a daily address" I guess most of the graduates of todays clinical programs are trained well in doublespeak and dont understand the seperation of church and state. But sure give me the "government appointed mindstate of the day" since its more "free" than the "opression" of religion...
- kleer001 5y ago
  I guess lots of people are coming up against the wall where freedom = fun ends and freedom = chaos begins.
paulryanrogers 5y ago
> We might could have thought about that before killing the churches, right? Religious trama is a thing. So my vote is no. Better to stop the harm and magical thinking right away. Perhaps after a new generation has grown up without all the baggage they can more objectively evaluate such things.
- mewse-hn 5y ago
  Historically, the village church wasn't just about worshipping the sky father and shunning non-believers. It was the original social safety net and the congregation would support people who were experiencing hardship. The tribe would come together for births / marriages / deaths. By rejecting all religion and vacating churches we've sort of thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We've damaged everyone's need for belonging and increased loneliness. Secular movements to restore a sense of community would be welcomed IMO (there are articles about how local mcdonald's have become gathering places in small american towns, surely this isn't ideal)
  - JetAlone 5y ago
    In Ronald's Name, why are you denouncing the McFaithful?
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    > Historically, the village church wasn't just about worshipping the sky father and shunning non-believers. It was the original social safety net and the congregation would support people who were experiencing hardship. So because charity in the past had these massive strings attached in the past today we should do what exactly? Modern social safety nets are more widely available and free from guilt trips, controlling busybodies, and harmful superstitions. > By rejecting all religion and vacating churches we've sort of thrown the baby out with the bathwater. We've damaged everyone's need for belonging and increased loneliness. IME far more emotional and physical harm was done by centuries of religion than this brief interm period between when they've been thrown off and the establishment of saner institutions and memes. McDonalds may not be the picture of healthy food options, yet as an established at least they don't encourage shaming or ostracizing people for being different. A relatively clean, dry, and welcoming place to meet isn't a bad thing.
perl4ever 5y ago
I asked a born again Christian what a cult was when I was a teenager. He said a cult is where people worship a man as though he was God. I silently filled in the next sentence in my head: "...but Christianity isn't a cult, because Jesus really was God..." Which is not to claim that Christianity is exactly the same as all the cults it won out over...but the differences can't be nearly as obvious as they seem in hindsight.
- NateEag 5y ago
  In every cult I know of, the worshipped man is physically present to benefit from the worship and control the followers. Christianity didn't really have that, ever, even if you take the Gospels as sober, rigorous history. They claim that Jesus ascended to heaven a few weeks after his resurrection. So, I think that's actually a significant differentiator.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    In my last sentence above, I was thinking more of cults in Roman times that were competitors, before Christianity took over. Modern cults that I've heard of are different.
    - NateEag 5y ago
      Gotcha, makes sense. I can't claim to know much about 1st-century cults.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - eloisius 5y ago
    Christ An Sang-Hong isn’t around to benefit from his followers, but somehow he’s still the Korean reincarnation of Jesus to many people.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    They said "the cults Christianity won over", so we're not talking about modern televangelists or heaven's gate here.
fnands 5y ago
> Having killed the churches, we gotta figure out what actual services they provided to society and re-implement them somehow. Well, I was with you on the first sentence, the rest not so much. But ignoring that, I do believe there is some good that (some) churches do, and it's a shame to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

ve55 5y ago

relevant reading that you're likely to enjoy if you enjoyed this post: https://meltingasphalt.com/doesnt-matter-warm-fuzzies/ https://meltingasphalt.com/doesnt-matter-warm-fuzzies/

benwills 5y ago
I haven't enjoyed/learned from a blog post like that in years. Thank you for sharing that.
notriddle 5y ago
This is much better than the OP.
avgcorrection 5y ago
There are anthropologists and sociologists out there. In case someone is interested in a more nuanced perspective than this “warm fuzzies” from a random MIT grad technologist.
- d0mine 5y ago
  The irony: "warm fuzzies" is exactly how one could describe what anthropologist and sociologist do. If the disciplines acquired some rigor without me noticing it, please, do link to the corresponding studies that are not "just-so" stories.

munificent 5y ago

I seemed to have missed the part in the article where the author explains why long rituals matter. If you want an answer, I think it's because they help us cope with death. By participating a ritual that predates us and outlive us, we feel like our actions help maintain something that will still be there when we are gone. We commune with the ritual to be part of something bigger and longer-lived than ourselves.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
neltnerb 5y ago
Events to encourage social cohesion seem like an obviously good thing to me, and having them annually seems to be very helpful for people in consciously experiencing the passage of time. Grieving, spending a moment looking forward, stuff like that. But some data would have been neat.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I'm not fond of religion, wasn't raised in it but you know religion wars, scandals, etc. But one day I realized that a lot of 'modern life' was being laid on a couch alone watching low level distraction and ads. Suddenly, the idea of sitting with you neighbors listening to latin spells from a wiser (allegedly) person felt like quality time.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    We're definitely missing a "secular religion", as an alternative to the preposterous and regressive superstitions that billions partake in.
    - agumonkey 5y ago
      few ideas: i guess we won't go to religion but maybe groupism (just being together) also i often think climate change will force that on us, less means and more challenges => deeper social link (unless violent political structures win first)

jltsiren 5y ago

Traditions and rituals emerge naturally in any community that lasts long enough. At least if you let them emerge instead of trying to create them deliberately. Traditional universities are full of rituals, because they are among the oldest secular institutions still in existence. For example, I got my doctoral sword and hat in an elaborate multi-day ceremony in 2014, and I will be invited to participate again in 2064 if I live long enough.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gearhart 5y ago
Perhaps, or perhaps it's the traditions and rituals that allow the community to last so long.

avgcorrection 5y ago

This is amazing. Less sophisticated atheists would share memes about how the Dark Ages was a literal time of scientific backwardsness in the Middle Ages caused by Christianity (look at this graph!). But some robotmen[1] eventually suspended their (dis)belief for long enough to get the idea that there might be some reason why people have followed traditions (i.e. not just label it as irrationality). And some even take the brave step into whatever pagan (relatively speaking: backwards) ritual might be going on next door. And they still manage to keep their robot qualities: the ritual’s benefits are “pro-social” and promote “the belief in community”. (One can forgive this robot for not just going full neuroscientist and just saying “oxycotin”.) And they even start their own little clubs and hangouts which are labeled <common adjective>ist, like “people who are rational and think long term”. Of course these little clubs are firmly rooted in some blogosphere and have no connection to any real traditions out there. Maybe they will indeed end up being embedded in some tradition somewhere, where they will ritualistically get to practice pro-socialness, belief-in-community, etc. (Emphasis on ritual.) All these efforts are commendable in that they are very sincere in their efforts to find some actual human meaning out there. (I guess that’s called meta-modernist, or meta-something or other…) Which is a step beyond the postmodernist posers. [1] The robotmen and atheists simply overlap somewhat. This is about the “rationalist” types, not about secular people.

twic 5y ago

The strongest theory about the origin of the big horse is that it was an advert for a horse shop. Maybe we can form more rituals around great advertisements from ancient times. Let's start greeting each other on the phone with "wazzaaaap".

nojs 5y ago

> the consumption of Kentucky Fried Christmas in Japan Is this true, or is it a submarine [1]? I asked a Japanese friend who has never heard of it. 1. http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

asciimike 5y ago
I was also skeptical until I stood next to a statue of the Colonel, dressed in a Santa suit, outside a KFC in Akihabara (photo proof available on request). I agree it's probably mostly clever marketing, but they definitely do lean into it over there too.
- JetAlone 5y ago
  I have a photo of him too.
lelandfe 5y ago
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-japanese-christmas https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-japanese-chris... https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20161216-why-japan-celebrates-christmas-with-kfc https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20161216-why-japan-cele... Definitely not just PR. Also - both great reads.

taurusnoises 5y ago

I just can't with long-termism and any idea that humans are somehow deserving of more time on the planet, bc, wow! Doing so good so far!

santoshalper 5y ago
Compared to what?
culi 5y ago
Long termism doesn't have to be just increased lifespans. The concept of "double death" might be helpful here. Death of a human might be when a human's heart stops. But their double death might be the last time someone says their name or the last time some important idea of theirs gets reproduced (or stops being reproducible, like if the last copy of an important artwork they made gets destroyed). The death of thousands of beetles can happen, but when the ecosystem they rely on to reproduce gets damaged to the point where it can't recuperate, that might be called their double death
inkblotuniverse 5y ago
Yes, they are.

bobthechef 5y ago

W.r.t. rituals, well, yes, they're signs, sensible signs. Human beings communicate through sensible signs. All cultures have ritual. The more important the think communicated, the more we need special and extraordinary words and gestures to match it. The exterior sign signifies an interior meaning or interior act. I don't understand the categorical revulsion some have to ritual (who themselves participate in rituals, probably without realizing it). You could dislike or detest particular rituals (the odious or absurd kinds most certainly), but not ritual in general.