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> The Budapest Memorandum was, unfortunately, not legally binding. Not justifying the lack of support from the West, but just pointing out an important aspect.
by drran 5y ago
> The Budapest Memorandum was, unfortunately, not legally binding. Not justifying the lack of support from the West, but just pointing out an important aspect.
Yep, nobody will be sued when Ukraine will nuke RF in violation of Budapest memorandum. So what?
- bitcharmer 5y agoSince when does Ukraine have nukes? They gave it up for empty promises from the west, no?
- throw1234651234 5y agoThey gave them up for empty promises from Russia and the West*. I like how you conveniently "forgot" that Russia signed that too. "The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers: the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents. The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan."
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoJust a comment, while the west's lack of support here angers me to no end (Russia I don't blame because how could you trust Russia, especially at that moment when so much was changing) while Ukraine had nukes physically, the actual control capabilities were all in Russia and it would have cost Ukraine a lot (money they didn't have at the time) to convert/maintain them to something usable anyways. Not that this is an excuse, but the situation isn't as clear cut as 'they had nukes and could have used them for their own defense if only the west hadn't taken them away'
- throw1234651234 5y ago1. You can absolutely blame Russia. When the nukes were taken away, new launch facilities were dismembered, and TU-160s (Jet strategic bombers, very large ones, which are always a serious threat for people who don't know) were cut OR TRANSFERRED to Russia. Russia knew exactly what it was doing. 2. Hitting Moscow from across the border with a real late 80s ICBM isn't exactly complicated for a country like Ukraine. Especially in this day and age. You drastically overstate the role of centralized C&C here. I want to stress that Ukraine demilitarized MODERN facilities. These aren't 60s hold overs. The West, of course, lied too. That doesn't absolve Russia however.
- bee_rider 5y agoWhat security assurances are you talking about, specifically?
- throw1234651234 5y agoIs this some sort of weird hint that Russia is not violating anything? Or some weird hint that the US is not violating its commitment? "The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan."
- bee_rider 5y agoI was wondering where you getting these quotes from, but I managed to find some of them in the Budapest Memorandum Wikipedia page. The provide a helpful list of the obligations as well: -- 1) Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[16] 2) Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 3) Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to influence their politics. 4) Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". 5) Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 6) Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments -- I don't see any commitments being violated here on the part of "the West." Most of the list is about not attacking Ukraine, rather than some commitment to proactively come to their defense. Maybe we can quibble about the wording on 4) a bit... but I would imagine it only covers concrete nuclear threats.
- throw1234651234 5y agoI have to admit - I trusted sources saying the US promised to defend Ukraine as part of these agreements, which is nowhere in this list. Thanks for posting the actual wording.
- 5y ago
- bitcharmer 5y ago> I like how you conveniently "forgot" that Russia signed that too I'm a Pole living in the west and the perspective of Putin's greedy gaze turning so close to my motherland is quite terrifying. I think your conclusion that I somehow "conveniently" forgot about Russia being the culprit here is a bit too far fetched here.
- drran 5y agoSince when Ukraine forgot how to make nukes?