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I would not march in the streets in protest if laws were passed curtailing proof-of-waste cryptocurrencies.

ephbit 5y ago
Let's chat about "proof-of-waste" again when in a few years central banks will have created so much inflation and enabled so much unsound government budgeting (simulaneously making inequality explode) that "proof-of-waste" will have become one of (if not) the most important non-manipulable linchpins that will coerce central banks to return to a less inflationary path. Just listen to what's happending in Turkey right now.
- verytrivial 5y ago
  So, let's solve corruption with more corruption. No. Regrettably I've read the first half of The Sovereign Individual and it's all about shifting obscene wealth around, not improving the lot of the average human -- that fig leaf covers nothing.
- optimalsolver 5y ago
  Meanwhile, at Tether HQ...
- simonh 5y ago
  I understand where you are right now, but the fact is central banks aren’t knowingly creating inequality, and aside from the ponzi scheme aspect the only economic use of cryptocurrencies is financing crime. I’m not going to persuade you now, so I wont try. Put a pin in your expectations for the future and revisit this in a few years or a decade’s time. Look at whether any of the extreme outcomes you are predicting now came anywhere even close to actually happening, and why they didn’t happen. Look back now at your opinions in the past of what extreme outcomes would have happened by now. Has any of it come to pass? Crypto in particular was supposed to have taken over as the payment method of choice, with near costless micro transactions funding amazing new businesses previously impossible. Instead it’s turned into a ridiculous ponzi cult, criminal financing network, and a way for wealthy dilettantes and rich world teenage gamers to collect imaginary fashion statements. It’s an utter farce and a complete betrayal of its founding principles and goals.
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cantillon#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20he%20posited%20that%20the%20original%20recipients%20of%20new%20money%20enjoy%20higher%20standards%20of%20living%20at%20the%20expense%20of%20later%20recipients.%5B63%5D%20The%20concept%20of%20relative%20inflation%2C%20or%20a%20disproportionate%20rise%20in%20prices%20among%20different%20goods%20in%20an%20economy%2C%20is%20now%20known%20as%20the%20Cantillon%20Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cantillon#:~:text=Furt... >...central banks aren’t knowingly creating inequality... They're just inflating asset prices and protecting investor classes at the expense of the rest of the economy. Disrupting the price discovery mechanism comes at a cost. Perhaps some here would propose that these activities come at no cost or are otherwise a free lunch. https://www.google.com/search?q=revolving+door+wallstreet+federal+reserve https://www.google.com/search?q=revolving+door+wallstreet+fe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Powell#Legal_and_investment_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Powell#Legal_and_invest... As for crypto, I am also disappointed. Many of the goals you listed have been accomplished technically. Unfortunately most people don't care. The speculative aspects trump the technology.
    - ephbit 5y ago
      > Perhaps some here would propose that these activities come at no cost or are otherwise a free lunch. Many people don't want to believe that the whole money system is a zero sum game. But it is. Just because people can't observe any change whatsoever when they're watching the numbers in their bank account while the central bank buys another chunk of bonds or lowers the interest rate, (in fact with negative interest being forwarded to end customers, people can actually see), doesn't mean the central bank's actions don't have any consequences for them. Just because there's a long and not exactly transparent path of connections between the value of some money in a bank account and the actions of a central bank doesn't mean the two are not linked in a very grievous way. Things exist despite being hard to spot/grasp. > Many of the goals you listed have been accomplished technically. Unfortunately most people don't care. Countries such as Lebanon or Argentina serve as examples for the obvious effect that beyond a certain level of inflation, people start to care. Turkey banned bitcoin but with inflationary pressure being as high as it is, the story is not yet over I'd bet.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > central banks will have created so much inflation and enabled so much unsound government budgeting (simulaneously making inequality explode) that "proof-of-waste" will have become one of (if not) the most important non-manipulable linchpins that will coerce central banks to return to a less inflationary path How and why will they do that? If WasteCoin were to become the dominant form of currency, all the shit that's happening with real currencies now would just happen with WasteCoin instead. Except that it will also waste a fuckton of energy, laying waste (Heh!) to the environment all over the globe. It's almost unfathomable what an utterly weird delusion WasteCoin proponents live in.
naveen99 5y ago
Diamonds are a proof of waste. Havans are a proof of waste. superbowl ads are a proof of waste. But waste is proof. Proof is valuable (not a waste).
- verytrivial 5y ago
  Please make the rest of your point. You listed some other awful things.
  - hda2 5y ago
    GP did a good job making his point. Human beings need to prove certain things somehow. Seemingly wasteful things like printing colored paper to trade satisfy this need.
    - verytrivial 5y ago
      Your example does not seem to be an extravegantly wasteful activity though. Perhaps you missed my point? Bitcoin is around 1,000 pounds of CO2 per transaction. That's about a 1,000 mile journey for an average US car, or nearer 2,000 in Europe. For a single operation on a currency? Is this cool with you?
- Hokusai 5y ago
  > But waste is proof. Proof is valuable (not a waste) I do not want to live in such a society. I do not want to order live in a society were rich people invest in wasted CPU cycles to proof how rich they are meanwhile scientist have problems getting their live changing studies financed. "President Mugabe's son 'pours £200 champagne over his £45,000 watch he boasted he got because "daddy run the whole country" as he parties while Zimbabwe starves'" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5062367/President-Mugabe-s-son-pours-champagne-45k-watch.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5062367/President-M...
  - pjc50 5y ago
    That last article is exactly it, isn't it? Cryptocurrencies are exactly that kind of conspicuous consumption of real resources for pure display of wealth that makes people hate that kind of dictator.

Let's chat about "proof-of-waste" again when in a few years central banks will have created so much inflation and enabled so much unsound government budgeting (simulaneously making inequality explode) that "proof-of-waste" will have become one of (if not) the most important non-manipulable linchpins that will coerce central banks to return to a less inflationary path. Just listen to what's happending in Turkey right now.

verytrivial 5y ago
So, let's solve corruption with more corruption. No. Regrettably I've read the first half of The Sovereign Individual and it's all about shifting obscene wealth around, not improving the lot of the average human -- that fig leaf covers nothing.
optimalsolver 5y ago
Meanwhile, at Tether HQ...
simonh 5y ago
I understand where you are right now, but the fact is central banks aren’t knowingly creating inequality, and aside from the ponzi scheme aspect the only economic use of cryptocurrencies is financing crime. I’m not going to persuade you now, so I wont try. Put a pin in your expectations for the future and revisit this in a few years or a decade’s time. Look at whether any of the extreme outcomes you are predicting now came anywhere even close to actually happening, and why they didn’t happen. Look back now at your opinions in the past of what extreme outcomes would have happened by now. Has any of it come to pass? Crypto in particular was supposed to have taken over as the payment method of choice, with near costless micro transactions funding amazing new businesses previously impossible. Instead it’s turned into a ridiculous ponzi cult, criminal financing network, and a way for wealthy dilettantes and rich world teenage gamers to collect imaginary fashion statements. It’s an utter farce and a complete betrayal of its founding principles and goals.
- aww_dang 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cantillon#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20he%20posited%20that%20the%20original%20recipients%20of%20new%20money%20enjoy%20higher%20standards%20of%20living%20at%20the%20expense%20of%20later%20recipients.%5B63%5D%20The%20concept%20of%20relative%20inflation%2C%20or%20a%20disproportionate%20rise%20in%20prices%20among%20different%20goods%20in%20an%20economy%2C%20is%20now%20known%20as%20the%20Cantillon%20Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Cantillon#:~:text=Furt... >...central banks aren’t knowingly creating inequality... They're just inflating asset prices and protecting investor classes at the expense of the rest of the economy. Disrupting the price discovery mechanism comes at a cost. Perhaps some here would propose that these activities come at no cost or are otherwise a free lunch. https://www.google.com/search?q=revolving+door+wallstreet+federal+reserve https://www.google.com/search?q=revolving+door+wallstreet+fe... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Powell#Legal_and_investment_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome_Powell#Legal_and_invest... As for crypto, I am also disappointed. Many of the goals you listed have been accomplished technically. Unfortunately most people don't care. The speculative aspects trump the technology.
  - ephbit 5y ago
    > Perhaps some here would propose that these activities come at no cost or are otherwise a free lunch. Many people don't want to believe that the whole money system is a zero sum game. But it is. Just because people can't observe any change whatsoever when they're watching the numbers in their bank account while the central bank buys another chunk of bonds or lowers the interest rate, (in fact with negative interest being forwarded to end customers, people can actually see), doesn't mean the central bank's actions don't have any consequences for them. Just because there's a long and not exactly transparent path of connections between the value of some money in a bank account and the actions of a central bank doesn't mean the two are not linked in a very grievous way. Things exist despite being hard to spot/grasp. > Many of the goals you listed have been accomplished technically. Unfortunately most people don't care. Countries such as Lebanon or Argentina serve as examples for the obvious effect that beyond a certain level of inflation, people start to care. Turkey banned bitcoin but with inflationary pressure being as high as it is, the story is not yet over I'd bet.
CRConrad 5y ago
> central banks will have created so much inflation and enabled so much unsound government budgeting (simulaneously making inequality explode) that "proof-of-waste" will have become one of (if not) the most important non-manipulable linchpins that will coerce central banks to return to a less inflationary path How and why will they do that? If WasteCoin were to become the dominant form of currency, all the shit that's happening with real currencies now would just happen with WasteCoin instead. Except that it will also waste a fuckton of energy, laying waste (Heh!) to the environment all over the globe. It's almost unfathomable what an utterly weird delusion WasteCoin proponents live in.

naveen99 5y ago

Diamonds are a proof of waste. Havans are a proof of waste. superbowl ads are a proof of waste. But waste is proof. Proof is valuable (not a waste).

verytrivial 5y ago
Please make the rest of your point. You listed some other awful things.
- hda2 5y ago
  GP did a good job making his point. Human beings need to prove certain things somehow. Seemingly wasteful things like printing colored paper to trade satisfy this need.
  - verytrivial 5y ago
    Your example does not seem to be an extravegantly wasteful activity though. Perhaps you missed my point? Bitcoin is around 1,000 pounds of CO2 per transaction. That's about a 1,000 mile journey for an average US car, or nearer 2,000 in Europe. For a single operation on a currency? Is this cool with you?
Hokusai 5y ago
> But waste is proof. Proof is valuable (not a waste) I do not want to live in such a society. I do not want to order live in a society were rich people invest in wasted CPU cycles to proof how rich they are meanwhile scientist have problems getting their live changing studies financed. "President Mugabe's son 'pours £200 champagne over his £45,000 watch he boasted he got because "daddy run the whole country" as he parties while Zimbabwe starves'" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5062367/President-Mugabe-s-son-pours-champagne-45k-watch.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5062367/President-M...
- pjc50 5y ago
  That last article is exactly it, isn't it? Cryptocurrencies are exactly that kind of conspicuous consumption of real resources for pure display of wealth that makes people hate that kind of dictator.