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Yes, but has the number decreased because of some fancy fences at the Last Exit Caltrain or because of a whole program of measures? https://evolvetreatment.com

Yes, but has the number decreased because of some fancy fences at the Last Exit Caltrain or because of a whole program of measures? https://evolvetreatment.com/blog/palo-alto-teen-mental-health/ https://evolvetreatment.com/blog/palo-alto-teen-mental-healt...

bayesian_horse 5y ago
Suicide isn't logical or rational. It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, therefor it matters how accessible the means of ending one's life is. Easy and instant access to firearms for example leads to way more successful (and even just attempted) suicides because it takes less time to take out a gun and shoot than virtually anything else.
- slx26 5y ago
  Unless you think hope is always logical or rational, then there are some situations in which suicide can be logical or rational. Or maybe simply humane, if you want. While reducing impulse suicides (and all suicides) is a noble goal, saying suicide isn't logical or rational to me is downplaying and disconnecting from the suffering of those that need the support (and not the judgement) the most.
- Borrible 5y ago
  > Suicide isn't logical or rational Sometimes it is. Not for most of the type of suicide we talk about here, I agree with you. But there are differences. Regarding firearms, what about suicide rates in Japan? Would they be higher with easier access to firearms? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan
  - watwut 5y ago
    > Would they be higher with easier access to firearms? Quite possibly. Is there a reason to think they would not? And yes, culture where suicide can be honorable or beautiful ending will likely have more suicides. Western tradition was treating suicide as a sin and stigma.
    - Borrible 5y ago
      > Is there a reason to think they would not? Yes, It could be dishonorable to use a firearm. A little bit of pain may make you look more manly, such stuff. The socio-cultural embedding of an an act that makes it logical and rational.
  - bayesian_horse 5y ago
    What do you think I meant by "almost always"? And yes, I believe there would be even more successful suicides in Japan if the Japanese had easier access to firearms.
    - Borrible 5y ago
      > What do you think I meant by "almost always"? Actually I did not consider what you meant with "almost always", because it is quite fuzzy and the value of that variable will may change over the discussion.
- weregiraffe 5y ago
  > It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, Your every decision is a result of a temporary state of mind.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > Suicide isn't logical or rational. This is bullshit. It may or may not be depending on individual conditions. If someone knows that they will suffer significatly for the rest of their lives, then it's entirely logical ans rational for them to end their life. It would be irrational to continue living if the cons were guaranteed (or even had a high likelyhood) to outweigh the pros.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    It’s impossible to understand the future with 100% certainty, ergo illogical.
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      This isn't even true in anything but a irrelevantly literal way, first of all. There are incurable diseases which can cause massive suffering. It would be irrational to live with one when consensus is that a cure won't be remotely on the horizon for one's lifetime. Sure, something could come up unexpectedly but you could also win the lotto too and it's irrational to play that. Second of all, your argument invalidates all decision making and planning, so is really a reductio ad absurdum for itself.
  - bayesian_horse 5y ago
    You ignored the "almost always" part. And for me "suffering" is not that logical or rational at all, for that matter. The expectation of such suffering can be reasonable. The willingness to end this suffering can be reasonable. This, however, is a small minority of suicides, suicide attempts and even more so, suicidal ideation.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      No, I didn't. You wrote "Suicide isn't logical or rational." not that suicide almost always isn't logical or rational; and then you gave an explanation that you claimed (without evidence or argument) is "almost always" the case. > This, however, is a small minority of suicides, suicide attempts and even more so, suicidal ideation. What data do you base this on and why do you believe that data to be representative?
DanBC 5y ago
Probably the fencing. We have enough pseudo-experiments now that we can say the fencing makes a difference. There's a carpark in the UK that had trouble adding fencing, so they closed the top level.
- Borrible 5y ago
  > Probably the fencing. That may well be. I do not deny that it is a solution for spontaneous suicides in a younger (male?) demographics. Do suicide methods of women or middle aged/elderly people differ? What types of suicides do access restricting measures prevent? Do people change methods? And so on. Suicide is a graven field for social scientists.

bayesian_horse 5y ago

Suicide isn't logical or rational. It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, therefor it matters how accessible the means of ending one's life is. Easy and instant access to firearms for example leads to way more successful (and even just attempted) suicides because it takes less time to take out a gun and shoot than virtually anything else.

slx26 5y ago
Unless you think hope is always logical or rational, then there are some situations in which suicide can be logical or rational. Or maybe simply humane, if you want. While reducing impulse suicides (and all suicides) is a noble goal, saying suicide isn't logical or rational to me is downplaying and disconnecting from the suffering of those that need the support (and not the judgement) the most.
Borrible 5y ago
> Suicide isn't logical or rational Sometimes it is. Not for most of the type of suicide we talk about here, I agree with you. But there are differences. Regarding firearms, what about suicide rates in Japan? Would they be higher with easier access to firearms? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan
- watwut 5y ago
  > Would they be higher with easier access to firearms? Quite possibly. Is there a reason to think they would not? And yes, culture where suicide can be honorable or beautiful ending will likely have more suicides. Western tradition was treating suicide as a sin and stigma.
  - Borrible 5y ago
    > Is there a reason to think they would not? Yes, It could be dishonorable to use a firearm. A little bit of pain may make you look more manly, such stuff. The socio-cultural embedding of an an act that makes it logical and rational.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  What do you think I meant by "almost always"? And yes, I believe there would be even more successful suicides in Japan if the Japanese had easier access to firearms.
  - Borrible 5y ago
    > What do you think I meant by "almost always"? Actually I did not consider what you meant with "almost always", because it is quite fuzzy and the value of that variable will may change over the discussion.
weregiraffe 5y ago
> It's almost always the result of a temporary state of mind, Your every decision is a result of a temporary state of mind.
guerrilla 5y ago
> Suicide isn't logical or rational. This is bullshit. It may or may not be depending on individual conditions. If someone knows that they will suffer significatly for the rest of their lives, then it's entirely logical ans rational for them to end their life. It would be irrational to continue living if the cons were guaranteed (or even had a high likelyhood) to outweigh the pros.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  It’s impossible to understand the future with 100% certainty, ergo illogical.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    This isn't even true in anything but a irrelevantly literal way, first of all. There are incurable diseases which can cause massive suffering. It would be irrational to live with one when consensus is that a cure won't be remotely on the horizon for one's lifetime. Sure, something could come up unexpectedly but you could also win the lotto too and it's irrational to play that. Second of all, your argument invalidates all decision making and planning, so is really a reductio ad absurdum for itself.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  You ignored the "almost always" part. And for me "suffering" is not that logical or rational at all, for that matter. The expectation of such suffering can be reasonable. The willingness to end this suffering can be reasonable. This, however, is a small minority of suicides, suicide attempts and even more so, suicidal ideation.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    No, I didn't. You wrote "Suicide isn't logical or rational." not that suicide almost always isn't logical or rational; and then you gave an explanation that you claimed (without evidence or argument) is "almost always" the case. > This, however, is a small minority of suicides, suicide attempts and even more so, suicidal ideation. What data do you base this on and why do you believe that data to be representative?

DanBC 5y ago

Probably the fencing. We have enough pseudo-experiments now that we can say the fencing makes a difference. There's a carpark in the UK that had trouble adding fencing, so they closed the top level.

Borrible 5y ago
> Probably the fencing. That may well be. I do not deny that it is a solution for spontaneous suicides in a younger (male?) demographics. Do suicide methods of women or middle aged/elderly people differ? What types of suicides do access restricting measures prevent? Do people change methods? And so on. Suicide is a graven field for social scientists.