4 ms·

> legitimizing antivaxxer stances makes the problem worse. Do you believe what I've posted legitimizes antivaxxers stance? If so, what specifically have I sai

by toolz 5y ago

> legitimizing antivaxxer stances makes the problem worse. Do you believe what I've posted legitimizes antivaxxers stance? If so, what specifically have I said that does such? Speaking of the dangers of over amplifying the fear, MMR vaccines have been delayed 6+ months for 2 million kids according to the UN if I recall correctly. This is due to disproportionate fear being spread around covid. Measles is hands-down worse than covid for kids. This is the effect of scaring everyone away from hospitals rather than having rational risk/benefit analysis conversations. edit: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/world-risk-measles-outbreaks-covid-19-disrupts-infant-shots-report-says-2021-11-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/... sorry it was the WHO who said 3 million more than the previous year missed MMR in 2020 which was the largest increase in two decades.

toyg 5y ago
> If so, what specifically have I said that does such? >> but to blame anti-vaxxers for that incomplete vaccinated status seems like a likely wrong conclusion It isn't the wrong conclusion! Press-spread antivax paranoia post-Wakefield was directly responsible for rates falling under safety levels! The reasons it hit harder in Wales are due to additional factors (lower educational levels, higher isolation, higher culture of distrust of (English) authority, etc etc), but there is absolutely no question that the fall in vaccination rates was due to the dawn of antivaxxers. That MMR vaccines have been delayed as result of lockdowns is tragic and should absolutely be fixed as soon as possible, of course. That's the case for any health-related procedure, we know the logistical impact of lockdowns has been massive - my son finally managed to get a dermatologist appointment in England after 10 months of waiting... The only way out of this state of things is to take Covid19 vaccination rates as close to 100% as possible, so that we can really turn it into "just a flu". Antivaxxers are an obstacle to this and should NOT be legitimized in any way, if we want to go back to a situation where we can safely prioritize other illnesses again.
- toolz 5y ago
  > Antivaxxers are an obstacle to this and should NOT be legitimized in any way agreed, but also anti-anti-vaxxers are an obstacle that sensationalize and demonize rather than converse and educate. > The only way out of this state of things is to take Covid19 vaccination rates as close to 100% as possible This is incorrect. We have 200+ viruses that are endemic and likely can't be eradicated with vaccines (at least not with modern tech). Even if the vaccine was effective at preventing transmission (it isn't, if it has any benefit it's marginal and the U.S. federal government even went on record during a court hearing admitting just as much) it certainly has no hope of preventing transmission in all of the many animals that are transmitters. > if we want to go back to a situation where we can safely prioritize other illnesses again This is the danger I'm talking about, there is no "going back" - we should be safely prioritizing every disease at all times _especially_ during a time of mass panic. No ones fear or mass panic should determine how we approach medicine, that should be obvious to everyone, but fear kills rationality. Someones fear of covid, for example, should never take precedence over someones cancer. Being more scared of something does not merit getting priority for anything.
  - toyg 5y ago
    > Someones fear of covid, for example, should never take precedence over someones cancer I'm sorry but I strongly disagree there, and I don't think we'll ever be able to reconcile our views in that area. With all due respect to cancer patients everywhere, civilization can survive with current rates of cancer much better than it can survive with high ratios of unchecked covid. And that determines priority. > This is incorrect. We have 200+ viruses that are endemic You are either repeating a talking point or failed to read my comment. The point of vaccination is to remove the likelihood of death and severe outcomes, turning covid into a flu, not necessarily to eradicate it. If we push vaccination rates high enough, this is achievable; but we can only do that if antivaxxers are not legitimized. Once covid really is just a flu, then we're more or less back to 2018. I hate to be "you have to choose a side", but when it comes to health issues that can dramatically affect the whole population, I get draconian. Every time you contest or argue against the vaccination effort, willingly or unwillingly you are on the side of antivaxxers.
    - 5y ago

by toolz 5y ago

toyg 5y ago

> If so, what specifically have I said that does such? >> but to blame anti-vaxxers for that incomplete vaccinated status seems like a likely wrong conclusion It isn't the wrong conclusion! Press-spread antivax paranoia post-Wakefield was directly responsible for rates falling under safety levels! The reasons it hit harder in Wales are due to additional factors (lower educational levels, higher isolation, higher culture of distrust of (English) authority, etc etc), but there is absolutely no question that the fall in vaccination rates was due to the dawn of antivaxxers. That MMR vaccines have been delayed as result of lockdowns is tragic and should absolutely be fixed as soon as possible, of course. That's the case for any health-related procedure, we know the logistical impact of lockdowns has been massive - my son finally managed to get a dermatologist appointment in England after 10 months of waiting... The only way out of this state of things is to take Covid19 vaccination rates as close to 100% as possible, so that we can really turn it into "just a flu". Antivaxxers are an obstacle to this and should NOT be legitimized in any way, if we want to go back to a situation where we can safely prioritize other illnesses again.

toolz 5y ago
> Antivaxxers are an obstacle to this and should NOT be legitimized in any way agreed, but also anti-anti-vaxxers are an obstacle that sensationalize and demonize rather than converse and educate. > The only way out of this state of things is to take Covid19 vaccination rates as close to 100% as possible This is incorrect. We have 200+ viruses that are endemic and likely can't be eradicated with vaccines (at least not with modern tech). Even if the vaccine was effective at preventing transmission (it isn't, if it has any benefit it's marginal and the U.S. federal government even went on record during a court hearing admitting just as much) it certainly has no hope of preventing transmission in all of the many animals that are transmitters. > if we want to go back to a situation where we can safely prioritize other illnesses again This is the danger I'm talking about, there is no "going back" - we should be safely prioritizing every disease at all times _especially_ during a time of mass panic. No ones fear or mass panic should determine how we approach medicine, that should be obvious to everyone, but fear kills rationality. Someones fear of covid, for example, should never take precedence over someones cancer. Being more scared of something does not merit getting priority for anything.
- toyg 5y ago
  > Someones fear of covid, for example, should never take precedence over someones cancer I'm sorry but I strongly disagree there, and I don't think we'll ever be able to reconcile our views in that area. With all due respect to cancer patients everywhere, civilization can survive with current rates of cancer much better than it can survive with high ratios of unchecked covid. And that determines priority. > This is incorrect. We have 200+ viruses that are endemic You are either repeating a talking point or failed to read my comment. The point of vaccination is to remove the likelihood of death and severe outcomes, turning covid into a flu, not necessarily to eradicate it. If we push vaccination rates high enough, this is achievable; but we can only do that if antivaxxers are not legitimized. Once covid really is just a flu, then we're more or less back to 2018. I hate to be "you have to choose a side", but when it comes to health issues that can dramatically affect the whole population, I get draconian. Every time you contest or argue against the vaccination effort, willingly or unwillingly you are on the side of antivaxxers.
  - 5y ago