5 ms·

I don't want a web browser reporting any data or telemetry about me period.

by encryptluks2 5y ago

rglullis 5y ago
It's opt-in. And the data is not about you! What is so difficult to understand?
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  It is opt out (telemetry data) but supposedly anonymized, so the data is about the user but is supposed to not be used in identifying them.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    No. We are talking about the ads system. That is completely opt-in. You are talking about their 3PA (Privacy-preserving Product Analytics) telemetry system, which has nothing to do with the ads.
- annoyingnoob 5y ago
  Targeted advertising is by definition about you. Aggregated information that reports on targeted ads is about you and others like you. Personally, I'm willing to pay for a Browser that does not also need an ad network to support it. To quote Brave "The goal is to show you privacy respecting ads that are relevant to the user in the right context. This is done by "matching" an ad that is (ideally) catered to you based on your browsing activity". https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360055013431-Why-don-t-I-see-any-Brave-Ads-after-enabling-them- https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360055013431-Why... It is clearly about you.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    > Personally, I'm willing to pay for a Browser that does not also need an ad network to support it. Ok, now go with the other 28 people that think the same and see if you can hire one developer. Or let's start much lower in the stack: let me know of ONE web service that is based on open standards and that you are paying right now.
    - annoyingnoob 5y ago
      I'm not sure what you are getting at, an implementation of a standard is not the standard itself. I buy lots of software that implements various open standards.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        Ok. I asked about services, not software one can buy, but anyway... how much did you pay for your email client? Group Chat messenger? VoIP soft-phone?
    - annoyingnoob 5y ago
      Because Brave is a service? And services are implemented with standards and not software? I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Yes, there is free software, and there is paid software, and both free and paid software implements standards. And yes, I pay for an email server and I pay for an email client, for example - because I find value in paid options that I do not find in free options.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        > because I find value in paid options that I do not find in free options. Yeah, and my point is that people don't pay for software unless it gives them something (aka "value") that is not available in the free alternatives. > I'm still not sure what you are getting at. In one sentence: There is no sustainable business that can rely only on the people interested in paying for a browser solely for privacy reasons.
        annoyingnoob 5y ago
        I said I would pay for it, never said anything about viability and not offering an opinion there. There are choices not built around extraneous ad networks. When Google places ads for its own products in better places than their customers that are paying for ad space we call that anti-competitive. When Brave blocks web ads and then offers their own ads instead you cheer it on, this is the same kind of anti-competitive practice. Not everything needs to be free in exchange for ads/tracking/marketing.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    The matching happens on-device. The targeting is done by the browser and it is the browser that decides what ads to show, based on the inventory that is downloaded periodically, by everyone. This is why there is the need to confirmation, so that Brave (and the publisher) can have a way to count how many ads were served and how much BAT is owed to each participant. At no moment it means that Brave or the publishers get any of your information. (Is there any more false misconception that you would like to have debunked, or are you just trying to earn the reputation for your username?)
    - annoyingnoob 5y ago
      Right, the browser catalogs everything you do and sends it to Brave to share with their advertisers. I've got it.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        No, you didn't get it at all. There is no activity logging and there is no "sharing". No one can prove who is the owner of the device that got the ad confirmation. No one can point at you after seeing an ad. All that is known is that advertiser X needs to pay for the confirmation Y. You don't need to reveal anything about yourself to be able to prove you have the confirmation. That's the whole point of double-blinded (or zero-knowledge) signatures. Stop misrepresenting everything about how the system works, you are being incredibly dishonest.
        annoyingnoob 5y ago
        Did you look at the links I provided in this thread? Maybe you missed this part as being 'out of scope' of their solution: "Brave collusion with CDN to track users based on IP" What happens when you click on a Brave ad and it takes you to an advertiser's landing page? That advertiser gets to learn all kinds of things about your browser. Brave's obfuscation only goes so far, and they know how to work-around their own solution. Trust them if you'd like but I don't. I don't need yet another chromium browser. Brave offers nothing that I cannot get elsewhere and includes an ad network. I think its Brave that is being dishonest, Brave cares about telling you a story and showing you ads, its marketing.

I don't want a web browser reporting any data or telemetry about me period.

rglullis 5y ago

It's opt-in. And the data is not about you! What is so difficult to understand?

encryptluks2 5y ago
It is opt out (telemetry data) but supposedly anonymized, so the data is about the user but is supposed to not be used in identifying them.
- rglullis 5y ago
  No. We are talking about the ads system. That is completely opt-in. You are talking about their 3PA (Privacy-preserving Product Analytics) telemetry system, which has nothing to do with the ads.
annoyingnoob 5y ago
Targeted advertising is by definition about you. Aggregated information that reports on targeted ads is about you and others like you. Personally, I'm willing to pay for a Browser that does not also need an ad network to support it. To quote Brave "The goal is to show you privacy respecting ads that are relevant to the user in the right context. This is done by "matching" an ad that is (ideally) catered to you based on your browsing activity". https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360055013431-Why-don-t-I-see-any-Brave-Ads-after-enabling-them- https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360055013431-Why... It is clearly about you.
- rglullis 5y ago
  > Personally, I'm willing to pay for a Browser that does not also need an ad network to support it. Ok, now go with the other 28 people that think the same and see if you can hire one developer. Or let's start much lower in the stack: let me know of ONE web service that is based on open standards and that you are paying right now.
  - annoyingnoob 5y ago
    I'm not sure what you are getting at, an implementation of a standard is not the standard itself. I buy lots of software that implements various open standards.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      Ok. I asked about services, not software one can buy, but anyway... how much did you pay for your email client? Group Chat messenger? VoIP soft-phone?
  - annoyingnoob 5y ago
    Because Brave is a service? And services are implemented with standards and not software? I'm still not sure what you are getting at. Yes, there is free software, and there is paid software, and both free and paid software implements standards. And yes, I pay for an email server and I pay for an email client, for example - because I find value in paid options that I do not find in free options.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > because I find value in paid options that I do not find in free options. Yeah, and my point is that people don't pay for software unless it gives them something (aka "value") that is not available in the free alternatives. > I'm still not sure what you are getting at. In one sentence: There is no sustainable business that can rely only on the people interested in paying for a browser solely for privacy reasons.
      - annoyingnoob 5y ago
        I said I would pay for it, never said anything about viability and not offering an opinion there. There are choices not built around extraneous ad networks. When Google places ads for its own products in better places than their customers that are paying for ad space we call that anti-competitive. When Brave blocks web ads and then offers their own ads instead you cheer it on, this is the same kind of anti-competitive practice. Not everything needs to be free in exchange for ads/tracking/marketing.
- rglullis 5y ago
  The matching happens on-device. The targeting is done by the browser and it is the browser that decides what ads to show, based on the inventory that is downloaded periodically, by everyone. This is why there is the need to confirmation, so that Brave (and the publisher) can have a way to count how many ads were served and how much BAT is owed to each participant. At no moment it means that Brave or the publishers get any of your information. (Is there any more false misconception that you would like to have debunked, or are you just trying to earn the reputation for your username?)
  - annoyingnoob 5y ago
    Right, the browser catalogs everything you do and sends it to Brave to share with their advertisers. I've got it.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      No, you didn't get it at all. There is no activity logging and there is no "sharing". No one can prove who is the owner of the device that got the ad confirmation. No one can point at you after seeing an ad. All that is known is that advertiser X needs to pay for the confirmation Y. You don't need to reveal anything about yourself to be able to prove you have the confirmation. That's the whole point of double-blinded (or zero-knowledge) signatures. Stop misrepresenting everything about how the system works, you are being incredibly dishonest.
      - annoyingnoob 5y ago
        Did you look at the links I provided in this thread? Maybe you missed this part as being 'out of scope' of their solution: "Brave collusion with CDN to track users based on IP" What happens when you click on a Brave ad and it takes you to an advertiser's landing page? That advertiser gets to learn all kinds of things about your browser. Brave's obfuscation only goes so far, and they know how to work-around their own solution. Trust them if you'd like but I don't. I don't need yet another chromium browser. Brave offers nothing that I cannot get elsewhere and includes an ad network. I think its Brave that is being dishonest, Brave cares about telling you a story and showing you ads, its marketing.