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Here's how to stand out: a CS/Engineering degree from a solid school. A JavaScript course with 2000+ students all "coding" the same portfolio app, to me, is a

Here's how to stand out: a CS/Engineering degree from a solid school. A JavaScript course with 2000+ students all "coding" the same portfolio app, to me, is a pretty big red flag.

tkzed49 5y ago
I don't think you're wrong about how people perceive this. But, it's funny because at my "top-ranked" CS college you could absolutely graduate having coded the exact same guided CS projects as everyone else (about 2 years worth of classes, which, granted, is more time than most coding schools). You _could_ take electives with complicated freeform projects, or that mimicked actual software engineering, or that focused on the state of the art in various CS specializations, but you didn't need to.
- restingrobot 5y ago
  I don't know about your school the projects we worked on compared to a boot camp were very different. For example, one boot camp a friend took spent an entire 4 week session iterating on a single project, that would have been a 1 week homework assignment at my school. I think that the high level courses are able to go much deeper due to their respective topics than "coding" specific schools that are faster. It's my opinion that the majority of learning took place in those late night lab sessions trying to meet a deadline, and not in the classroom.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    That [0] is a school assignment. Granted it's two weeks. On top of a full course load, of course, so they have a few like these in parallels. I don't think there's any bootcamp out there that has that. [0] https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f10/www/labs/malloclab-writeup.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f10/www/l...
- cheriot 5y ago
  My observations from school are similar. I'm a big fan of the value of a computer science education, but most of that came from choosing the harder electives. There were people graduating that did the minimum and... let's say "relied on friends for help". No signal is foolproof.
ushakov 5y ago
a degree does not make you a better engineer, does not bring you more luck and does not equate to actual experience it does not guarantee you a job either most people i work with today have either no degree or degree in some other unrelevant field they're brilliant engineers, they bring lots of value to the table and i enjoy working with them
- restingrobot 5y ago
  >a degree does not make you a better engineer, does not bring you more luck and does not mean actual experience >it does not guarantee you a job either You are right, but it does show that you can stick to something and finish it, that you most likely have at least a baseline knowledge of the subject, and that you are committed to the field. I'm not even saying that it has to be a CS degree, but having a CS degree is definitely bonus for an applicant.
  - ushakov 5y ago
    not a HR, but i'd much rather prefer a candidate with 5 years of experience and no degree to someone with a 5 year degree and no experience
    - depaya 5y ago
      One of those people is entry level and the other is at least mid level. Certainly it would depend on what kind of a position you're trying to fill and how much you can afford.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - cweagans 5y ago
    You can be a terrible engineer with a degree. You can also be an excellent engineer without one. To me, that pretty clearly makes the case that a CS degree is not an indicator of future success in a given role. IMO, CS degrees don't prove anything other than a) you had the means to attend a university, b) you learn best by having somebody else guide your learning, and c) you can survive the classes designed to "weed people out". Personally, I'm a lot more interested in interviewing people who may have come from more humble backgrounds, who learn really well on their own, and who don't entertain artificial barriers to entry.
restingrobot 5y ago
This is sad but true. Some of my best hires have been self taught, but I only took a chance on them because of they were able to demonstrate their knowledge of fundamentals, (in ways very similar to this post). Having a degree from a reputable school usually means candidates have that foundation already, and it is much less of a risk as far as hiring. This post should almost be "how to stand out if you don't have a degree".
LanceH 5y ago
As an interviewer, I wouldn't say it's a red flag so much as a nothing sandwich.
gruez 5y ago
>A JavaScript course with 2000+ students all "coding" the same portfolio app, to me, is a pretty big red flag. Why? Are you exclusively looking for 10x developers or something?
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  It would be crazy not to. One 10x engineer is what, 300K total comp? I don't think I can get the equivalent of a 10x by splitting that 300K and hiring more coders at a lower price. That also means more employees to manage, more communication channels and more 1:1 time because they are less autonomous. Doesn't scale as well. If you can find them, 10x are an incredible value.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >One 10x engineer is what, 300K total comp? >If you can find them, 10x are an incredible value. Efficient market hypothesis implies that this arbitrage shouldn't exist, either because the 10x 300k total comp developers you found aren't actually 10x, or 10x developers cost much more than 300k (either because employers are clamoring for 10x developers and bid up their salary to 10x regular salary, or that they're so in demand that finding/recruiting them is expensive enough that it massively increases the cost).
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      And yet, it does. > either because the 10x 300k total comp developers you found aren't actually 10x That's a possibility. Honestly I've seen both approaches (going with prevailing wages, CoL or whatever metric) vs just matching what's happening in the Valley no matter where and the caliber of resumes you get with the second option is simply on an other level. > or that they're so in demand that finding/recruiting them is expensive enough that it massively increases the cost The trick is to adopt a different mindset. You have to understand that these guys are never on the market. They'll get offers and interviews long before they publicly announce they are looking for a new job. Google has second year interns coming-in that won't work anywhere else but Mountain View for the next 7 years because they'll get an offer long before graduation. It's all about finding a pipeline with a high signal to noise ratio and investing in it.

Here's how to stand out: a CS/Engineering degree from a solid school. A JavaScript course with 2000+ students all "coding" the same portfolio app, to me, is a pretty big red flag.

tkzed49 5y ago

I don't think you're wrong about how people perceive this. But, it's funny because at my "top-ranked" CS college you could absolutely graduate having coded the exact same guided CS projects as everyone else (about 2 years worth of classes, which, granted, is more time than most coding schools). You _could_ take electives with complicated freeform projects, or that mimicked actual software engineering, or that focused on the state of the art in various CS specializations, but you didn't need to.

restingrobot 5y ago
I don't know about your school the projects we worked on compared to a boot camp were very different. For example, one boot camp a friend took spent an entire 4 week session iterating on a single project, that would have been a 1 week homework assignment at my school. I think that the high level courses are able to go much deeper due to their respective topics than "coding" specific schools that are faster. It's my opinion that the majority of learning took place in those late night lab sessions trying to meet a deadline, and not in the classroom.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  That [0] is a school assignment. Granted it's two weeks. On top of a full course load, of course, so they have a few like these in parallels. I don't think there's any bootcamp out there that has that. [0] https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f10/www/labs/malloclab-writeup.pdf https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/academic/class/15213-f10/www/l...
cheriot 5y ago
My observations from school are similar. I'm a big fan of the value of a computer science education, but most of that came from choosing the harder electives. There were people graduating that did the minimum and... let's say "relied on friends for help". No signal is foolproof.

ushakov 5y ago

a degree does not make you a better engineer, does not bring you more luck and does not equate to actual experience it does not guarantee you a job either most people i work with today have either no degree or degree in some other unrelevant field they're brilliant engineers, they bring lots of value to the table and i enjoy working with them

restingrobot 5y ago
>a degree does not make you a better engineer, does not bring you more luck and does not mean actual experience >it does not guarantee you a job either You are right, but it does show that you can stick to something and finish it, that you most likely have at least a baseline knowledge of the subject, and that you are committed to the field. I'm not even saying that it has to be a CS degree, but having a CS degree is definitely bonus for an applicant.
- ushakov 5y ago
  not a HR, but i'd much rather prefer a candidate with 5 years of experience and no degree to someone with a 5 year degree and no experience
  - depaya 5y ago
    One of those people is entry level and the other is at least mid level. Certainly it would depend on what kind of a position you're trying to fill and how much you can afford.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- cweagans 5y ago
  You can be a terrible engineer with a degree. You can also be an excellent engineer without one. To me, that pretty clearly makes the case that a CS degree is not an indicator of future success in a given role. IMO, CS degrees don't prove anything other than a) you had the means to attend a university, b) you learn best by having somebody else guide your learning, and c) you can survive the classes designed to "weed people out". Personally, I'm a lot more interested in interviewing people who may have come from more humble backgrounds, who learn really well on their own, and who don't entertain artificial barriers to entry.

restingrobot 5y ago

This is sad but true. Some of my best hires have been self taught, but I only took a chance on them because of they were able to demonstrate their knowledge of fundamentals, (in ways very similar to this post). Having a degree from a reputable school usually means candidates have that foundation already, and it is much less of a risk as far as hiring. This post should almost be "how to stand out if you don't have a degree".

LanceH 5y ago

As an interviewer, I wouldn't say it's a red flag so much as a nothing sandwich.

gruez 5y ago

>A JavaScript course with 2000+ students all "coding" the same portfolio app, to me, is a pretty big red flag. Why? Are you exclusively looking for 10x developers or something?

908B64B197 5y ago
It would be crazy not to. One 10x engineer is what, 300K total comp? I don't think I can get the equivalent of a 10x by splitting that 300K and hiring more coders at a lower price. That also means more employees to manage, more communication channels and more 1:1 time because they are less autonomous. Doesn't scale as well. If you can find them, 10x are an incredible value.
- gruez 5y ago
  >One 10x engineer is what, 300K total comp? >If you can find them, 10x are an incredible value. Efficient market hypothesis implies that this arbitrage shouldn't exist, either because the 10x 300k total comp developers you found aren't actually 10x, or 10x developers cost much more than 300k (either because employers are clamoring for 10x developers and bid up their salary to 10x regular salary, or that they're so in demand that finding/recruiting them is expensive enough that it massively increases the cost).
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    And yet, it does. > either because the 10x 300k total comp developers you found aren't actually 10x That's a possibility. Honestly I've seen both approaches (going with prevailing wages, CoL or whatever metric) vs just matching what's happening in the Valley no matter where and the caliber of resumes you get with the second option is simply on an other level. > or that they're so in demand that finding/recruiting them is expensive enough that it massively increases the cost The trick is to adopt a different mindset. You have to understand that these guys are never on the market. They'll get offers and interviews long before they publicly announce they are looking for a new job. Google has second year interns coming-in that won't work anywhere else but Mountain View for the next 7 years because they'll get an offer long before graduation. It's all about finding a pipeline with a high signal to noise ratio and investing in it.