4 ms·

And NSO is the value option. Now imagine what nation states with an actual budget have at their disposal.

Aperocky 5y ago
The problem with nation states is that they don't pay people. I don't think nation state can ever come up with something like this - it takes passion, genius and those qualities demand higher premiums than governments are ever willing to hand out.
- addingnumbers 5y ago
  Their entire business model is predicated on nation-states paying NSO more than NSO pays their employees.
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    nation states are willing to pay a LOT more for a contract, they just don't want to pay people directly.
  - runeb 5y ago
    Yes but they’re are paying for a proven exploit, not sinking money into R&D
cronix 5y ago
It came out in the recent trial that the FBI couldn't open Kyle Rittenhouse's iPhone, which was the latest generation at that time last year.
- dogma1138 5y ago
  The FBI couldn’t mainly because they haven’t caught up to this level as it’s not their primary objective they are first and foremost and investigative outfit. The NSA not to mention the entirety of the US defense industry could’ve easily found a way to break the encryption on a single device especially since they only had to break a relatively simple password / passcode it’s just a question of how much would it cost and how long would it take.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  That might just be what the FBI wants you to think...
  - cronix 5y ago
    Of course that is possible, but they also released their aerial infrared video of the event to the prosecution, which was not previously known.
- nexuist 5y ago
  Wait, but Kyle Rittenhouse was still alive and participated in the trial. They couldn't just make him open it himself?
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    First of all, that's kind of a sticky subject in the US due to the Fifth Amendment. Second of all, I have no idea what the parent commenter is talking about. Rittenhouse willingly turned his phone over to investigators.
pradn 5y ago
It's still pretty expensive! NSO charged a flat $500,000 fee for installing Pegasus. It charged government agencies $650,000 to spy on 10 iPhones; $650,000 for 10 Android users; $500,000 for five BlackBerry users; or $300,000 for five Symbian users.
- krashidov 5y ago
  Feels weird that a private company can target individuals for a price. How was this legal? Isn’t it illegal to hack the phone of a private individual? Or do they simply say here’s the tool, here’s the manual, do what you want just don’t tell us?
  - kube-system 5y ago
    Isreal classifies it as a weapon. In contrast to companies that make guns and bombs, spyware seems mild by comparison.
    - rodgerd 5y ago
      Depends whether the spyware ends up with you being cut to pieces with a hacksaw while a Saudi prince watches over a teleconference link, I guess. I'd rather be blown up.
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    Phone companies charge governments to tap a phone line this isn’t that different with the only exception that phone companies usually have to only follow requests made within the country they operate in and those are usually backed by a warrant. Like with any complicated tech things are a bit more involved since their exports are controlled under the same regime as weapon exports do in Israel they likely have some oversight to ensure that their tech does not leak out and isn’t used outside of the bounds of what was agreed on at levels that go beyond NSO as a company itself. These exports were very much part of the Israeli and quite likely the US foreign policy. Some deals like the one with KSA probably should never been greenlit but many others unfortunately have had the outrage steered away from the main culprits. Amongst their exports they’ve also exported it to European nations such as Poland. Poland an EU and NATO member had used this software to have one of its government agencies spy on a prosecutor in charge of an investigation into some of the leading party’s members, however it didn’t seem to generate as much outrage and what little it had was directed as the NSO or Israel which is laughable. Poland isn’t a state that normally could fall under any arms embargoes or export restrictions. This software had likely very little to do with Khashoggi‘s fate, they didn’t use it to lure him into a trap or to track him for an assassination he was killed in an embassy after being invited to come in, and he came in out of his own free will. I’m far more interested in how some of their western clients have used this software and unfortunately so far no one seems to want to pick or steer the story that way.
bt1a 5y ago
How can you be so sure NSO is not funded by nation state(s)? :)
- rwaksmunski 5y ago
  Well, I imagine knowing on whom foreign intelligence services are spying on is very valuable to Mossad :)

The problem with nation states is that they don't pay people. I don't think nation state can ever come up with something like this - it takes passion, genius and those qualities demand higher premiums than governments are ever willing to hand out.

addingnumbers 5y ago
Their entire business model is predicated on nation-states paying NSO more than NSO pays their employees.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  nation states are willing to pay a LOT more for a contract, they just don't want to pay people directly.
- runeb 5y ago
  Yes but they’re are paying for a proven exploit, not sinking money into R&D

cronix 5y ago

It came out in the recent trial that the FBI couldn't open Kyle Rittenhouse's iPhone, which was the latest generation at that time last year.

dogma1138 5y ago
The FBI couldn’t mainly because they haven’t caught up to this level as it’s not their primary objective they are first and foremost and investigative outfit. The NSA not to mention the entirety of the US defense industry could’ve easily found a way to break the encryption on a single device especially since they only had to break a relatively simple password / passcode it’s just a question of how much would it cost and how long would it take.
oh_sigh 5y ago
That might just be what the FBI wants you to think...
- cronix 5y ago
  Of course that is possible, but they also released their aerial infrared video of the event to the prosecution, which was not previously known.
nexuist 5y ago
Wait, but Kyle Rittenhouse was still alive and participated in the trial. They couldn't just make him open it himself?
- jaywalk 5y ago
  First of all, that's kind of a sticky subject in the US due to the Fifth Amendment. Second of all, I have no idea what the parent commenter is talking about. Rittenhouse willingly turned his phone over to investigators.

pradn 5y ago

It's still pretty expensive! NSO charged a flat $500,000 fee for installing Pegasus. It charged government agencies $650,000 to spy on 10 iPhones; $650,000 for 10 Android users; $500,000 for five BlackBerry users; or $300,000 for five Symbian users.

krashidov 5y ago
Feels weird that a private company can target individuals for a price. How was this legal? Isn’t it illegal to hack the phone of a private individual? Or do they simply say here’s the tool, here’s the manual, do what you want just don’t tell us?
- kube-system 5y ago
  Isreal classifies it as a weapon. In contrast to companies that make guns and bombs, spyware seems mild by comparison.
  - rodgerd 5y ago
    Depends whether the spyware ends up with you being cut to pieces with a hacksaw while a Saudi prince watches over a teleconference link, I guess. I'd rather be blown up.
- dogma1138 5y ago
  Phone companies charge governments to tap a phone line this isn’t that different with the only exception that phone companies usually have to only follow requests made within the country they operate in and those are usually backed by a warrant. Like with any complicated tech things are a bit more involved since their exports are controlled under the same regime as weapon exports do in Israel they likely have some oversight to ensure that their tech does not leak out and isn’t used outside of the bounds of what was agreed on at levels that go beyond NSO as a company itself. These exports were very much part of the Israeli and quite likely the US foreign policy. Some deals like the one with KSA probably should never been greenlit but many others unfortunately have had the outrage steered away from the main culprits. Amongst their exports they’ve also exported it to European nations such as Poland. Poland an EU and NATO member had used this software to have one of its government agencies spy on a prosecutor in charge of an investigation into some of the leading party’s members, however it didn’t seem to generate as much outrage and what little it had was directed as the NSO or Israel which is laughable. Poland isn’t a state that normally could fall under any arms embargoes or export restrictions. This software had likely very little to do with Khashoggi‘s fate, they didn’t use it to lure him into a trap or to track him for an assassination he was killed in an embassy after being invited to come in, and he came in out of his own free will. I’m far more interested in how some of their western clients have used this software and unfortunately so far no one seems to want to pick or steer the story that way.

bt1a 5y ago

How can you be so sure NSO is not funded by nation state(s)? :)

rwaksmunski 5y ago
Well, I imagine knowing on whom foreign intelligence services are spying on is very valuable to Mossad :)