4 ms·

In my opinion, you're missing the point of the article. * CSS is not a markup language at all, it's a DSL that typically and generically operates within an exi

In my opinion, you're missing the point of the article. * CSS is not a markup language at all, it's a DSL that typically and generically operates within an existing markup language (HTML, XML, SGML, etc.) * all code is about "update source and hit refresh", which is exactly what other web-facing languages do (or "update source and hit compile", which is essentially the same for the purposes of your point) * making things look good is tedious and boring to you, but coding forms connected to back-end databases through a REST API is boring to others (or whatever it is you do); it is as much a challenge to be solved as anything else * aesthetics and taste are not related to CSS development; making a web page match it's design in look, feel, and behaviour is completely solvable. Don't conflate CSS development with web design * this is a stereotype and you should be ashamed of yourself for propagating it Remember that modern programming was invented by a woman and the only gender stereotype on display (aside from your own gender-stereotypical opinion on hygiene habits and the validity of making things look good) is from the quoted article (https://medium.com/@Heydon/reluctant-gatekeeping-the-problem-with-full-stack-e9ad836570f6 https://medium.com/@Heydon/reluctant-gatekeeping-the-problem...) that is noting a trend and not an opinion on how CSS (making things look good) is treated as a more feminine profession.

andrewzah 5y ago
"CSS is not a markup language at all" Ok. It's a style sheet language. This doesn't change any of the reasons that I've listed as to why people don't prefer working with it. "all code is about "update source and hit refresh" No. Not at all. I either think through logic or literally whiteboard, then write it. I get feedback, think/whiteboard, rewrite, and repeat. Even if a language has a REPL environment, I still am thinking and coming up with logic in order to solve a real problem. Not writing markup and hitting refresh to make sure my div now has rounded borders or whatever. "coding forms connected to back-end databases through a REST API is boring to others" In other words, doing dull, mindless drudgery is boring to everyone. Of course I hate linking up REST APIs; it's sometimes necessary but tedious and boring. Frameworks like rails do as much as they can do automate that stuff as well, because people would rather be working on interesting problems. When I talk about software development, I don't mean "a person having hands on a keyboard inputting characters". I'm talking about a person using reasoning and logic to come up with solutions to actual interesting problems, not "how do I center this div" or "how do I style this webpage". "Don't conflate CSS development with web design" CSS development goes hand-in-hand with web design. If one is just writing CSS to conform to a premade design, then it's even more mindless toiling to ensure that it renders correctly across browsers and screen sizes. You may disagree, but it still has -nothing- to do with being feminine or masculine or anything related to that. "(aside from your own gender-stereotypical opinion on hygiene habits and the validity of making things look good)" The only person making assumptions here is you. I never stated that it was related to being -male-, I said "programmers". My opinion comes from literally observing people in my own profession. People in other professions don't quite have stereotypes around lacking fashion sense. "that is noting a trend and not an opinion" Ascribing femininity to CSS development is literally an opinion. Stating that "men don't value CSS because prettifying things is seen as feminine" is literally an opinion. Nobody that I know in software development has -ever- stated anything even remotely close to this about CSS, or web design, or frontend work in general. Nobody forces anyone to do frontend work, or backend work, or web design, or infrastructure, or... It's a choice. People simple value other aspects of development because they are more interesting. Trying to imply that CSS is less valued or seen as less interesting because it "might be seen as feminine" is completely divorced from reality. Just insanity.
- metaloha 5y ago
  Meh, I had a whole thing written here, but I'll summarize instead. Don't perpetuate your own stereotypical views. I have personally known very, very few developers who I would describe as having poor taste, fashion, or habits. The ratio is probably the same as for non-developers - I have definitely met people in every profession who wore socks with sandals and/or stank of BO. Musicians, developers, writers, whatever. Speaking of gender bias, which you don't believe exists in this case, how can that perception be defeated unless we work collectively to remove it? Saying there is no gender bias in various aspects of development is simply noting that you will be unable to address gender-related issues on your team should they arise. At the same time, it can be easy to go too far and become hyper-sensitive to the issue. It clearly _does_ exist, I've seen it myself; when your manager invites you to a meeting solely to compliment your ability to listen to the women on your team, shit has well and truly gone wrong somewhere else. To your final statement, you definitely consider CSS less valued and less interesting than "real" development - is that a gender bias on your part? Or do you truly believe it's a less valid and less important aspect of web development for reasons that have nothing to do with gender or the idea that making something "pretty" is less important than other aspects of product?

andrewzah 5y ago

"CSS is not a markup language at all" Ok. It's a style sheet language. This doesn't change any of the reasons that I've listed as to why people don't prefer working with it. "all code is about "update source and hit refresh" No. Not at all. I either think through logic or literally whiteboard, then write it. I get feedback, think/whiteboard, rewrite, and repeat. Even if a language has a REPL environment, I still am thinking and coming up with logic in order to solve a real problem. Not writing markup and hitting refresh to make sure my div now has rounded borders or whatever. "coding forms connected to back-end databases through a REST API is boring to others" In other words, doing dull, mindless drudgery is boring to everyone. Of course I hate linking up REST APIs; it's sometimes necessary but tedious and boring. Frameworks like rails do as much as they can do automate that stuff as well, because people would rather be working on interesting problems. When I talk about software development, I don't mean "a person having hands on a keyboard inputting characters". I'm talking about a person using reasoning and logic to come up with solutions to actual interesting problems, not "how do I center this div" or "how do I style this webpage". "Don't conflate CSS development with web design" CSS development goes hand-in-hand with web design. If one is just writing CSS to conform to a premade design, then it's even more mindless toiling to ensure that it renders correctly across browsers and screen sizes. You may disagree, but it still has -nothing- to do with being feminine or masculine or anything related to that. "(aside from your own gender-stereotypical opinion on hygiene habits and the validity of making things look good)" The only person making assumptions here is you. I never stated that it was related to being -male-, I said "programmers". My opinion comes from literally observing people in my own profession. People in other professions don't quite have stereotypes around lacking fashion sense. "that is noting a trend and not an opinion" Ascribing femininity to CSS development is literally an opinion. Stating that "men don't value CSS because prettifying things is seen as feminine" is literally an opinion. Nobody that I know in software development has -ever- stated anything even remotely close to this about CSS, or web design, or frontend work in general. Nobody forces anyone to do frontend work, or backend work, or web design, or infrastructure, or... It's a choice. People simple value other aspects of development because they are more interesting. Trying to imply that CSS is less valued or seen as less interesting because it "might be seen as feminine" is completely divorced from reality. Just insanity.

metaloha 5y ago
Meh, I had a whole thing written here, but I'll summarize instead. Don't perpetuate your own stereotypical views. I have personally known very, very few developers who I would describe as having poor taste, fashion, or habits. The ratio is probably the same as for non-developers - I have definitely met people in every profession who wore socks with sandals and/or stank of BO. Musicians, developers, writers, whatever. Speaking of gender bias, which you don't believe exists in this case, how can that perception be defeated unless we work collectively to remove it? Saying there is no gender bias in various aspects of development is simply noting that you will be unable to address gender-related issues on your team should they arise. At the same time, it can be easy to go too far and become hyper-sensitive to the issue. It clearly _does_ exist, I've seen it myself; when your manager invites you to a meeting solely to compliment your ability to listen to the women on your team, shit has well and truly gone wrong somewhere else. To your final statement, you definitely consider CSS less valued and less interesting than "real" development - is that a gender bias on your part? Or do you truly believe it's a less valid and less important aspect of web development for reasons that have nothing to do with gender or the idea that making something "pretty" is less important than other aspects of product?