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Ruby had a huge hype, then its growth slowed down and now it's falling behind quickly. Yeah it's big, but other frameworks that chose a different path w.r.t. m

Ruby had a huge hype, then its growth slowed down and now it's falling behind quickly. Yeah it's big, but other frameworks that chose a different path w.r.t. metaprogramming seem to be the more popular (and growing) choice today.

the_gastropod 5y ago
While that may be true, I'm not sure that's evidence that DSL's are the reason. I would argue the explanation is: JavaScript. I think many people are compelled by the idea that you can learn one language, and handle both back and front-end development. As the language has improved over the past ~10 years, this angle has only become more compelling, and has eaten into the popularity of other "traditional" web frameworks like Django, Rails, Spring, etc.
- emteycz 5y ago
  I myself am one of these people. But even if Ruby worked anywhere and I could share all my code, I would still prefer TypeScript because of its support for typed JSX and excellent typing system overall. The IDE can help me in most cases, while it stays silent a lot with Ruby. I just don't see what more Ruby offers - and I'm saying that as someone who really likes OOP and really wanted to like Ruby.
  - the_gastropod 5y ago
    I think JavaScript benefits from typing a lot more than Ruby does. Ruby is at least strongly typed, so doing something like `[] + {}` or `4 + {foo: "bar"}` will raise an exception instead of return you a seemingly-arbitrary value. As far as what Ruby offers over JavaScript? It's a bit personal preference, but I prefer Ruby for several reasons: - More stable ecosystem. There are more canonical "best" tools for the job. There's one dominant web framework, one dominant background job processor, one dominant task runner, debugger, testing framework, etc. - More robust standard library. Enumerable rocks. And rolls. - Better fits "OO" definitions—everything is an object in Ruby. It supports public/private/protected instance methods/variables.
- lazyjeff 5y ago
  I was about to say as well, JavaScript, SQL, were both niche DSLs that are now mainstream enough that people prep them for general software development interviews. JavaScript is now a general language, but maybe the most popular DSLs break out of that once they've gained a certain mindshare, at which point they're no longer a DSL.
jhgb 5y ago
That's a category error. Ruby is not a framework.
- emteycz 5y ago
  Doesn't matter, almost nobody uses Ruby without Rails. And my statement holds true for any Ruby framework.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    > my statement holds true for any Ruby framework Are you sure all Ruby frameworks use the same "path w.r.t. metaprogramming" as Rails? It's been a while since I looked at them but I recall many priding themselves in the difference back then.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Ruby programmers still use the features, even if their framework doesn't
      - jhgb 5y ago
        And you're saying that that was the reason? I'm just trying to divine the relevance of the "other frameworks that chose a different path w.r.t. metaprogramming seem to be the more popular (and growing) choice today" claim.
        emteycz 5y ago
        Sorry, meant languages+frameworks, not just frameworks there. I was thinking of TS+React or C#+ASP.NET in that particular case.
de_keyboard 5y ago
It's hard to complete with JavaScript on client and server. How's the Ruby to JS story these days?

the_gastropod 5y ago

While that may be true, I'm not sure that's evidence that DSL's are the reason. I would argue the explanation is: JavaScript. I think many people are compelled by the idea that you can learn one language, and handle both back and front-end development. As the language has improved over the past ~10 years, this angle has only become more compelling, and has eaten into the popularity of other "traditional" web frameworks like Django, Rails, Spring, etc.

emteycz 5y ago
I myself am one of these people. But even if Ruby worked anywhere and I could share all my code, I would still prefer TypeScript because of its support for typed JSX and excellent typing system overall. The IDE can help me in most cases, while it stays silent a lot with Ruby. I just don't see what more Ruby offers - and I'm saying that as someone who really likes OOP and really wanted to like Ruby.
- the_gastropod 5y ago
  I think JavaScript benefits from typing a lot more than Ruby does. Ruby is at least strongly typed, so doing something like `[] + {}` or `4 + {foo: "bar"}` will raise an exception instead of return you a seemingly-arbitrary value. As far as what Ruby offers over JavaScript? It's a bit personal preference, but I prefer Ruby for several reasons: - More stable ecosystem. There are more canonical "best" tools for the job. There's one dominant web framework, one dominant background job processor, one dominant task runner, debugger, testing framework, etc. - More robust standard library. Enumerable rocks. And rolls. - Better fits "OO" definitions—everything is an object in Ruby. It supports public/private/protected instance methods/variables.
lazyjeff 5y ago
I was about to say as well, JavaScript, SQL, were both niche DSLs that are now mainstream enough that people prep them for general software development interviews. JavaScript is now a general language, but maybe the most popular DSLs break out of that once they've gained a certain mindshare, at which point they're no longer a DSL.

jhgb 5y ago

That's a category error. Ruby is not a framework.

emteycz 5y ago
Doesn't matter, almost nobody uses Ruby without Rails. And my statement holds true for any Ruby framework.
- jhgb 5y ago
  > my statement holds true for any Ruby framework Are you sure all Ruby frameworks use the same "path w.r.t. metaprogramming" as Rails? It's been a while since I looked at them but I recall many priding themselves in the difference back then.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Ruby programmers still use the features, even if their framework doesn't
    - jhgb 5y ago
      And you're saying that that was the reason? I'm just trying to divine the relevance of the "other frameworks that chose a different path w.r.t. metaprogramming seem to be the more popular (and growing) choice today" claim.
      - emteycz 5y ago
        Sorry, meant languages+frameworks, not just frameworks there. I was thinking of TS+React or C#+ASP.NET in that particular case.

de_keyboard 5y ago

It's hard to complete with JavaScript on client and server. How's the Ruby to JS story these days?