7 ms·

This probably sounds harsh, but are all vaccine-bashing readers deliberately selectively-illiterate? In the abstract (academic for "TL;DR") it literally states

This probably sounds harsh, but are all vaccine-bashing readers deliberately selectively-illiterate? In the abstract (academic for "TL;DR") it literally states that Covid is between 7 and 40 times more likely to cause Myocarditis. And a lot of you write about palpitations, which can also be caused by stress and anxiety. I'm 30, in good physical shape, and used to have weekly episodes with irregular heartbeats due to severe stress. Now I'm vaccinated (which is for 99.999% of us obviously completely irrelevant to experiencing this, but a lot of commenters draw that conclusion) and the palpitations are gone. Let's not base conclusion on anecdotal evidence, please. For the same reason that my grandpa lived until 85 while smoking since he was 13.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mirker 5y ago
I’ve had palpitations before from having too much caffeine regularly (yes, while stressed).
tudorizer 5y ago
Strange, right? So much focus on edge cases.
whitepaint 5y ago
If you already had Covid, should you get vaccinated?
- y7 5y ago
  Yes. See https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/omicron-update-dec-13 https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/omicron-updat...
  - whitepaint 5y ago
    "Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare . " https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfe...
    - tigershark 5y ago
      You can post something from last century, it will be as wrong as this link. Omicron has shown extremely increased reinfection risk compared to all the other variants. So the correct answer is: yes, you absolutely do need to get a vaccine after the infection if you want to lower your reinfection chances.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      They can't be that rare. I heard about multiple from my social circle.
      - ethanbond 5y ago
        Curious enough, almost everyone I know who had COVID once at least thinks they got it at least one more time. Obviously anecdata etc., I’m not substantiating any argument at all with this, but this fact of my personal experience didn’t occur to me until reading your comment!
      - rajup 5y ago
        Nice. We have reached the point where hearing from your social circle is equivalent to data.
        scotty79 5y ago
        It's not. However if somebody claims that something almost never happens and you, being completely average person, know few people that claim it has happned to them then something might be up. Somebody's might be mistaken. Probably those few people but I'd like to see stronger evidence for the general claim as well. Especially if claim is extraordinary. We know very few illnesses where being sick once gives you immunity for life.
- scotty79 5y ago
  Most likely yes. Look at the chart at the last page of this PDF. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v...
  - kame3d 5y ago
    If I'm reading the charts correctly, the incidence of infection after recovering from Covid is around 13-15 per 100k after 6-8 months, and after recovering from Covid + Vaccination is around 10-14 per 100k after 6-8 months. So it seems like vaccination does not present a clear benefit for someone that recovered from Covid? (The confidence intervals overlap)
    - scotty79 5y ago
      I think the main benefit is that taking vaccine re-sets the timer on your dimnishing immunity from prior infection. So if you had covid 8 months ago, but took the vaccine last month you have significantly better immunity than if you didn't. While a person that took vaccine 8 months ago and was also sick even further back (for example 12 months ago), has roughly the same immunity as a person who was sick 8 months ago and didn't vaccinate.
    - basch 5y ago
      >does not present a clear benefit It sounds like youre operating from a premise of unnecessary doses being slightly bad, vs slightly good. Is there a clear benefit to not taking pascals wager?
      - Bancakes 5y ago
        The premise that injecting experimental substances in my body is not necessarily a good thing.
        scotty79 5y ago
        With over 6 billion doses taken worldwide it's currently about as experimental as aspirin.
- antocv 5y ago
  No, do not do it. Not worth the risk, while your natural immunity is way more effective than even 3 shots of vaccine. If you are above 60 years old, get the vaccine.
- dublin 5y ago
  There is NO reason to take the substantial risks that go along with the vaccine if you already have the superior multifaceted natural immunity produced by having already been infected. Even if I hadn't already had Covid, I would not take the additional risks of the vaccine, since they are considerably more likely to result in serious damage or death than simply having the virus. Unless you have serious and significant comorbidities, you are NOT likely to be killed or even significantly injured, by the virus itself. What we really should be doing, though is not arguing about gene-modifying "vaccines", but rather working to promote proven-effective therapies (mostly zinc plus zinc ionophores like HCQ, IVM, Quercetin, and Fluvoxamine, in concert with steroids, and in severe cases, oxygen. Note that these drugs are NOT effective alone! (The studies claiming they are ineffective have tested them in isolation.)
- throwntoday 5y ago
  No. Ask yourself if the low chance of getting covid again (lower than if you were only vaccinated) is worth the complications from unforeseen issues. Without taking the vaccine you introduce none of the potential risks of the vaccine. If there are any you simply can't get them if you don't take it.
Argonaut998 5y ago
>it literally states that Covid is between 7 and 40 times more likely to cause Myocarditis. There is no control group for unvaccinated people in this study. Everyone who got myocarditis from COVID had at least one dose of the vaccine. So the correct statement is "COVID is between 7 and 40 times more likely to cause myocarditis IF you have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine"
- ppaattrriicckk 5y ago
  That's a very fair point. Hard to do anything about right now, since they unfortunately didn't include those. However, while very hand-wavy on my part, I believe there's plenty of evidence that Covid on its own wreaks havoc on our cardiovascular system, so I'm definitely leaning towards it being the biggest sole risk here.
  - loceng 5y ago
    From what I've read it's more so the current state of cardiovascular health that leads to problems relating to COVID, e.g. comorbidities.
- ImaCake 5y ago
  The study is “self-control” which means patients are compared before and after the exposure (vaccine or covid) for the outcome (myocarditis). So there is a control - the control for each person is their pre-exposure selves. If you want to argue against the article I suggest considering the bias of being 1 year older after the exposure than before it. For a large population that might matter for myocarditis incidence. I suspect they have corrected for this however.
  - Trumpi 5y ago
    I think the point here is that the article should have said that Covid is between 7 and 40 times more likely to cause Myocarditis _for vaccinated people_ because unvaccinated people weren't studied.
antocv 5y ago
The abstract says that for all older than 16, but look at he data per age group.
pjc50 5y ago
> are all vaccine-bashing readers deliberately selectively-illiterate? Yes, that's how discourse is done these days: text is a corpus from which you select the statements that support your position and discard the rest.
- GenerocUsername 5y ago
  You are not immune. I promise you
pdimitar 5y ago
> Now I'm vaccinated (which is for 99.999% of us obviously completely irrelevant to experiencing this, but a lot of commenters draw that conclusion) and the palpitations are gone. Let's not base conclusion on anecdotal evidence, please. I am not claiming anything either way (neither pro-vax nor anti-vax) but your statement is a tad ironic since you literally draw a conclusion from your own, singular, anecdotal evidence.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ppaattrriicckk 5y ago
  That was the joke
  - pdimitar 5y ago
    So it was a joke? Sorry, they fly over my head when it comes to Covid. Everyone is so outraged about anything about it these days regardless in which they camp they fall.
    - dTal 5y ago
      Read it again. They implied that the vaccine cured their palpitations, to demonstrate the absurdity.
      - ppaattrriicckk 5y ago
        Exactly that - apologies for not elaborating myself. At least I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks for being good sports about it, both :-)
Unklejoe 5y ago
> used to have weekly episodes with irregular heartbeats due to severe Off topic, but this happened to me as well. I was having up to 20,000 PVCs a day, and I believe they were brought on by stress. What did you end up doing to reduce them? Or did they slowly resolve on their own?
- assadk 5y ago
  Try a good Magnesium supplement, this will bring down your general anxiety and also regulate heart contractions: > In the heart, magnesium plays a key role in modulating neuronal excitation, intracardiac conduction, and myocardial contraction by regulating a number of ion transporters, including potassium and calcium channels. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29793664/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29793664/
Bancakes 5y ago
Anecdotal evidence is some of the strongest evidence because it's real, personally observed data. It's easy to convince someone of something when they see it, and you don't have to trust anyone but your senses.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  That's a perfect example of how the public has no idea how science works. Anecdotal evidence is the bases of witchcraft, homeopathy and a host of other confused dogmas. They're built on taking one coincidence and creating a castle of speculation, all the while thinking "I have figured out something those scientists have missed!" It takes a host of data to create information. On spec of data is largely useless for illuminating any complex subject.
  - Bancakes 5y ago
    To quote baseball umpires, "It ain't bothin' till I call it." If something works, I want to see why. If something doesn't work, I want to see why. You want people to believe in global warming, coronavirus, and healthy foods, make global warming, coronavirus, and healthy food test kits. I hate to burst your bubble, but when the rubber hits the road, science journals are just text on paper, disconnected from reality. Gravity, radiation, magnetism, etc were discovered through experimentation and demonstrations. We live in a dark age of irreproducibility. Take health industry and cybersecurity industry for example. The former publishes controversial results every weekend, and the latter has us trust closed source systems due to appeal to authority. Anecdotal data isn't much but it's your data, and that sure is better than wrong data.
    - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
      It's pretty much identical to wrong data. One data point is nothing. It's a comprehensive mistake to give it any weight. At least for complex subjects like health, weather etc. "I saw a snowflake! Global warming has to be wrong!" is not any kind of conclusion.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mirker 5y ago

I’ve had palpitations before from having too much caffeine regularly (yes, while stressed).

tudorizer 5y ago

Strange, right? So much focus on edge cases.

whitepaint 5y ago

If you already had Covid, should you get vaccinated?

y7 5y ago
Yes. See https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/omicron-update-dec-13 https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/omicron-updat...
- whitepaint 5y ago
  "Cases of reinfection with COVID-19 have been reported, but remain rare . " https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfection.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/reinfe...
  - tigershark 5y ago
    You can post something from last century, it will be as wrong as this link. Omicron has shown extremely increased reinfection risk compared to all the other variants. So the correct answer is: yes, you absolutely do need to get a vaccine after the infection if you want to lower your reinfection chances.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    They can't be that rare. I heard about multiple from my social circle.
    - ethanbond 5y ago
      Curious enough, almost everyone I know who had COVID once at least thinks they got it at least one more time. Obviously anecdata etc., I’m not substantiating any argument at all with this, but this fact of my personal experience didn’t occur to me until reading your comment!
    - rajup 5y ago
      Nice. We have reached the point where hearing from your social circle is equivalent to data.
      - scotty79 5y ago
        It's not. However if somebody claims that something almost never happens and you, being completely average person, know few people that claim it has happned to them then something might be up. Somebody's might be mistaken. Probably those few people but I'd like to see stronger evidence for the general claim as well. Especially if claim is extraordinary. We know very few illnesses where being sick once gives you immunity for life.
scotty79 5y ago
Most likely yes. Look at the chart at the last page of this PDF. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.04.21267114v...
- kame3d 5y ago
  If I'm reading the charts correctly, the incidence of infection after recovering from Covid is around 13-15 per 100k after 6-8 months, and after recovering from Covid + Vaccination is around 10-14 per 100k after 6-8 months. So it seems like vaccination does not present a clear benefit for someone that recovered from Covid? (The confidence intervals overlap)
  - scotty79 5y ago
    I think the main benefit is that taking vaccine re-sets the timer on your dimnishing immunity from prior infection. So if you had covid 8 months ago, but took the vaccine last month you have significantly better immunity than if you didn't. While a person that took vaccine 8 months ago and was also sick even further back (for example 12 months ago), has roughly the same immunity as a person who was sick 8 months ago and didn't vaccinate.
  - basch 5y ago
    >does not present a clear benefit It sounds like youre operating from a premise of unnecessary doses being slightly bad, vs slightly good. Is there a clear benefit to not taking pascals wager?
    - Bancakes 5y ago
      The premise that injecting experimental substances in my body is not necessarily a good thing.
      - scotty79 5y ago
        With over 6 billion doses taken worldwide it's currently about as experimental as aspirin.
antocv 5y ago
No, do not do it. Not worth the risk, while your natural immunity is way more effective than even 3 shots of vaccine. If you are above 60 years old, get the vaccine.
dublin 5y ago
There is NO reason to take the substantial risks that go along with the vaccine if you already have the superior multifaceted natural immunity produced by having already been infected. Even if I hadn't already had Covid, I would not take the additional risks of the vaccine, since they are considerably more likely to result in serious damage or death than simply having the virus. Unless you have serious and significant comorbidities, you are NOT likely to be killed or even significantly injured, by the virus itself. What we really should be doing, though is not arguing about gene-modifying "vaccines", but rather working to promote proven-effective therapies (mostly zinc plus zinc ionophores like HCQ, IVM, Quercetin, and Fluvoxamine, in concert with steroids, and in severe cases, oxygen. Note that these drugs are NOT effective alone! (The studies claiming they are ineffective have tested them in isolation.)
throwntoday 5y ago
No. Ask yourself if the low chance of getting covid again (lower than if you were only vaccinated) is worth the complications from unforeseen issues. Without taking the vaccine you introduce none of the potential risks of the vaccine. If there are any you simply can't get them if you don't take it.

Argonaut998 5y ago

>it literally states that Covid is between 7 and 40 times more likely to cause Myocarditis. There is no control group for unvaccinated people in this study. Everyone who got myocarditis from COVID had at least one dose of the vaccine. So the correct statement is "COVID is between 7 and 40 times more likely to cause myocarditis IF you have gotten at least one dose of the vaccine"

ppaattrriicckk 5y ago
That's a very fair point. Hard to do anything about right now, since they unfortunately didn't include those. However, while very hand-wavy on my part, I believe there's plenty of evidence that Covid on its own wreaks havoc on our cardiovascular system, so I'm definitely leaning towards it being the biggest sole risk here.
- loceng 5y ago
  From what I've read it's more so the current state of cardiovascular health that leads to problems relating to COVID, e.g. comorbidities.
ImaCake 5y ago
The study is “self-control” which means patients are compared before and after the exposure (vaccine or covid) for the outcome (myocarditis). So there is a control - the control for each person is their pre-exposure selves. If you want to argue against the article I suggest considering the bias of being 1 year older after the exposure than before it. For a large population that might matter for myocarditis incidence. I suspect they have corrected for this however.
- Trumpi 5y ago
  I think the point here is that the article should have said that Covid is between 7 and 40 times more likely to cause Myocarditis _for vaccinated people_ because unvaccinated people weren't studied.

antocv 5y ago

The abstract says that for all older than 16, but look at he data per age group.

pjc50 5y ago

> are all vaccine-bashing readers deliberately selectively-illiterate? Yes, that's how discourse is done these days: text is a corpus from which you select the statements that support your position and discard the rest.

GenerocUsername 5y ago
You are not immune. I promise you

pdimitar 5y ago

> Now I'm vaccinated (which is for 99.999% of us obviously completely irrelevant to experiencing this, but a lot of commenters draw that conclusion) and the palpitations are gone. Let's not base conclusion on anecdotal evidence, please. I am not claiming anything either way (neither pro-vax nor anti-vax) but your statement is a tad ironic since you literally draw a conclusion from your own, singular, anecdotal evidence.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ppaattrriicckk 5y ago
That was the joke
- pdimitar 5y ago
  So it was a joke? Sorry, they fly over my head when it comes to Covid. Everyone is so outraged about anything about it these days regardless in which they camp they fall.
  - dTal 5y ago
    Read it again. They implied that the vaccine cured their palpitations, to demonstrate the absurdity.
    - ppaattrriicckk 5y ago
      Exactly that - apologies for not elaborating myself. At least I couldn't have put it better myself. Thanks for being good sports about it, both :-)

Unklejoe 5y ago

> used to have weekly episodes with irregular heartbeats due to severe Off topic, but this happened to me as well. I was having up to 20,000 PVCs a day, and I believe they were brought on by stress. What did you end up doing to reduce them? Or did they slowly resolve on their own?

assadk 5y ago
Try a good Magnesium supplement, this will bring down your general anxiety and also regulate heart contractions: > In the heart, magnesium plays a key role in modulating neuronal excitation, intracardiac conduction, and myocardial contraction by regulating a number of ion transporters, including potassium and calcium channels. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29793664/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29793664/

Bancakes 5y ago

Anecdotal evidence is some of the strongest evidence because it's real, personally observed data. It's easy to convince someone of something when they see it, and you don't have to trust anyone but your senses.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
That's a perfect example of how the public has no idea how science works. Anecdotal evidence is the bases of witchcraft, homeopathy and a host of other confused dogmas. They're built on taking one coincidence and creating a castle of speculation, all the while thinking "I have figured out something those scientists have missed!" It takes a host of data to create information. On spec of data is largely useless for illuminating any complex subject.
- Bancakes 5y ago
  To quote baseball umpires, "It ain't bothin' till I call it." If something works, I want to see why. If something doesn't work, I want to see why. You want people to believe in global warming, coronavirus, and healthy foods, make global warming, coronavirus, and healthy food test kits. I hate to burst your bubble, but when the rubber hits the road, science journals are just text on paper, disconnected from reality. Gravity, radiation, magnetism, etc were discovered through experimentation and demonstrations. We live in a dark age of irreproducibility. Take health industry and cybersecurity industry for example. The former publishes controversial results every weekend, and the latter has us trust closed source systems due to appeal to authority. Anecdotal data isn't much but it's your data, and that sure is better than wrong data.
  - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
    It's pretty much identical to wrong data. One data point is nothing. It's a comprehensive mistake to give it any weight. At least for complex subjects like health, weather etc. "I saw a snowflake! Global warming has to be wrong!" is not any kind of conclusion.