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A lack of willpower does not make something "borderline impossible". Not to suggest that it's easy to get someone to do something that they don't want to do, bu

A lack of willpower does not make something "borderline impossible". Not to suggest that it's easy to get someone to do something that they don't want to do, but let's not remove personal agency here. I wonder to what extent this mindset of viewing depression as purely biological is responsible for keeping people in depression by removing their sense of agency over it, as well as fostering dependence on drugs that at best result in temporary relief with a constant need for ever-increasing dosages as desensitization arises, and at worst can actually dramatically worsen one's mental condition (happened to a friend of mine recently who started experiencing depression since COVID lockdowns, was prescribed medication by a therapist, which seemed to be working at first until he started experiencing bipolar psychosis, and has now been switched to another medication and had to have the police called on him after multiple episodes of insanity, and is now on the verge of being sent to a mental hospital)

neuronic 5y ago
> Thread about severe depression > Someone mentions lack of willpower and personal agency. It's honestly incredible how people STILL try to argue that depressed people should "just get over with it", just stop being sad and stop being lazy. My god. Excuse me, but you have fundamentally failed at understanding what depression even is and apparently conflate it with some rebel teenager phase during puberty by telling people to just get a grip on themselves.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  It's depressing to see drivel like this on HN. Literally this: https://i2.wp.com/www.robot-hugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2013-11-21-Helpful-Advice.png?fit=630%2C1029&ssl=1 https://i2.wp.com/www.robot-hugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015...
- JSavageOne 5y ago
  Strawman fallacy. I never said that it was easy or "just get over it". To quote my original post: "Not to suggest that it's easy to get someone to do something that they don't want to do, but let's not remove personal agency here." My comment was simply disputing the other comment's assertion that forcing oneself to do something outside of their comfort zone like going to the gym when depressed is "borderline impossible to the point that it's an impractical and irrelevant suggestion". It is my belief that this victim mentality and remove of one's sense of personal agency in the matter is at best useless, at worst incredibly damaging. Even the original commenter stated that for some, depression is purely biological, whereas for others, it may involve behavioral components. It's kind of ridiculous that anytime someone mentions personal agency in a depression thread, one gets heavily downvoted with hoards of commenters jumping in to say "depression is purely biological and only treatable through medication and therapy!" Ok, perhaps this is true for many depressed people, but what is the breakdown of depressed people who's depression is purely biological like this vs. those who's depression is also behavioral (I would guess the former being a small minority)? Why are we not allowed to acknowledge the latter? How does speaking to self-agency make anyone worse off? Depression is complex. Let's not reduce it to something as simple as being a biological disease curable only via medication and therapy. In the past I would've said something along the same lines as my previous posts but excused myself out of the conversation earlier since I don't really have a horse in this race. But now that I have a close friend who's experiencing psychosis and basically lost his mind (eg. running around naked, talking to voices in his head) due to some psychiatrist prescribing him with the "wrong" depression medication, the issue has become personal to me. Apparently even the "experts" don't seem to know how to treat depression, so let's not speak so condescendingly and matter-of-factly as if anyone knows what they're talking about here.
guerrilla 5y ago
> mindset of viewing depression as purely biological That mindset is called a medical and scientific mindset[1]. You need to educate yourself before you hurt someone. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_depression
- newby 5y ago
  You seem to be conflating also biological with purely biological. The parent was arguing against reducing depression to biology only, not claiming that biology plays no part in it. The link you provide does not prove that "medical and scientific mindset" views depression as purely biological - it just shows various ways depression affects/is affected by biology, which is not mutually exclusive with other things playing part in depression. I believe the current scientific consensus is that it is not even possible to clearly separate biological from psychological or behavioral in a complex system where psychological states affect biology and vice versa. Your invitation to "educate yourself" seems condescending and unnecessary.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    Honestly the random question of “what would happen if you just forced depressed people to pretend they’re not depressed” when my understanding is that is about the same as wondering what would happen if you had chronically ill folk try yoga. That is to say, a generic wellness strategy that shows condescending attitudes towards the severity of someone else’s disease. Someone with depression very likely attempted to exercise, eat right, etc and found that it is either impossible to perform when suffering from untreated/treatment-resistant depression or that their depression involves the inability to respond appropriately to exercise and a good diet.
avgcorrection 5y ago
People like you are not helping. You may think you are, but you are not. Good intentions or not.

neuronic 5y ago

> Thread about severe depression > Someone mentions lack of willpower and personal agency. It's honestly incredible how people STILL try to argue that depressed people should "just get over with it", just stop being sad and stop being lazy. My god. Excuse me, but you have fundamentally failed at understanding what depression even is and apparently conflate it with some rebel teenager phase during puberty by telling people to just get a grip on themselves.

formerly_proven 5y ago
It's depressing to see drivel like this on HN. Literally this: https://i2.wp.com/www.robot-hugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/2013-11-21-Helpful-Advice.png?fit=630%2C1029&ssl=1 https://i2.wp.com/www.robot-hugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015...
JSavageOne 5y ago
Strawman fallacy. I never said that it was easy or "just get over it". To quote my original post: "Not to suggest that it's easy to get someone to do something that they don't want to do, but let's not remove personal agency here." My comment was simply disputing the other comment's assertion that forcing oneself to do something outside of their comfort zone like going to the gym when depressed is "borderline impossible to the point that it's an impractical and irrelevant suggestion". It is my belief that this victim mentality and remove of one's sense of personal agency in the matter is at best useless, at worst incredibly damaging. Even the original commenter stated that for some, depression is purely biological, whereas for others, it may involve behavioral components. It's kind of ridiculous that anytime someone mentions personal agency in a depression thread, one gets heavily downvoted with hoards of commenters jumping in to say "depression is purely biological and only treatable through medication and therapy!" Ok, perhaps this is true for many depressed people, but what is the breakdown of depressed people who's depression is purely biological like this vs. those who's depression is also behavioral (I would guess the former being a small minority)? Why are we not allowed to acknowledge the latter? How does speaking to self-agency make anyone worse off? Depression is complex. Let's not reduce it to something as simple as being a biological disease curable only via medication and therapy. In the past I would've said something along the same lines as my previous posts but excused myself out of the conversation earlier since I don't really have a horse in this race. But now that I have a close friend who's experiencing psychosis and basically lost his mind (eg. running around naked, talking to voices in his head) due to some psychiatrist prescribing him with the "wrong" depression medication, the issue has become personal to me. Apparently even the "experts" don't seem to know how to treat depression, so let's not speak so condescendingly and matter-of-factly as if anyone knows what they're talking about here.

guerrilla 5y ago

> mindset of viewing depression as purely biological That mindset is called a medical and scientific mindset[1]. You need to educate yourself before you hurt someone. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_depression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_depression

newby 5y ago
You seem to be conflating also biological with purely biological. The parent was arguing against reducing depression to biology only, not claiming that biology plays no part in it. The link you provide does not prove that "medical and scientific mindset" views depression as purely biological - it just shows various ways depression affects/is affected by biology, which is not mutually exclusive with other things playing part in depression. I believe the current scientific consensus is that it is not even possible to clearly separate biological from psychological or behavioral in a complex system where psychological states affect biology and vice versa. Your invitation to "educate yourself" seems condescending and unnecessary.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  Honestly the random question of “what would happen if you just forced depressed people to pretend they’re not depressed” when my understanding is that is about the same as wondering what would happen if you had chronically ill folk try yoga. That is to say, a generic wellness strategy that shows condescending attitudes towards the severity of someone else’s disease. Someone with depression very likely attempted to exercise, eat right, etc and found that it is either impossible to perform when suffering from untreated/treatment-resistant depression or that their depression involves the inability to respond appropriately to exercise and a good diet.

avgcorrection 5y ago

People like you are not helping. You may think you are, but you are not. Good intentions or not.