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>Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. >That there

>Sounds like you just don’t like change honestly. I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. >That there is no great community around wayland is because of naysayers like yourself. Things are easier to solve than they used to be but people are doing everything they can to avoid using wayland. Rust has plenty of naysayers, as does pipewire. People hate Apple stuff with a passion, but they are all good. Wayland works on GNOME, which is a fact. I even said if its "good enough" it will take a long time for more application support, unless I hate myself and resign myself to no configuration GNOME. The reason it has no community is because it sucks. >Normally I would take the stance of “what ever works” but you sound like you’ll do anything to justify not switching. Arguing about creature comforts or that your compositor has more control over your UX than some random program is an absolutely surface level argument when we’re talking about fundamental and required architecture changes for us to go forward with desktop Linux. You don't get to decide what the direction of desktop linux is, or what people want to do with their open source software. I could say that the dolphin is the stupidest animal in the world, and nobody would take me seriously. Wayland sucks, if tomorrow x.org didn't exist, I would not continue to use linux. There is no benefit for most users in this thread. I even said I used it on a touch device to get rotation working on my touch tablet, but you ignored that because I have a different preference than you. Every "feature" of wayland sounds like a regression if doublespeaking as regression in features is going forward. >That you don’t understand how dire the situation was becoming is quite telling. It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. There is a new maintainer, I will continue to use the best tools for myself, which will not be wayland for any non touch computer. Wayland design is... good It's taken over a decade to add a fraction of x.org features, random plugins needed to make it imitate x11, and with less features it still crashes? If it such a required architeture change, why is it making everything worst? What does forward even mean, less features with more crashes? No thanks. If it was so great why does it still suck compared to the so called dire x.org? >It’s not worse, it just doesn’t have the community stuff behind it yet, and the reason is the mentality you have. Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! Nobody wants to use crappier software with less features despite the dire "problems" of x.org, they made a rational choice, which bothers you so much. Why does it matter what I run? You look down on everyone's problem as invalid, calls our mentality wrong, and can't even define what forward is, or why anyone cares, because nothing you say is a benefit matters. Don't be suprised if wayland never gets used or doesn't ever gain traction, other half baked projects like btrfs that are inferior to even older software are not going to be used over better alternatives. You are dishonest about screen tearing being an issue, and calling my custom hotkeys "stealing keystrokes", saying its fundamentally broken when wayland breaks more things, and instead of the project acknowledging user needs, they ignore it and somehow wonder why nobody want to use it. I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken, it has less features, no gains to non graphics or productivity, no benefits and more drawbacks to most users, the wonderful future of the "forward thinking" design that strips useful features and ignores what people like about x.org is beneficial to everyone. No, it is inferior in every way except for gyroscope screen rotation and slightly smoother movements, something that is compartively worthless to the suite of useful x.org features.

dijit 5y ago
> I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. The ecosystem around bicycles is much better than the ecosystem around trucks. You are tasked with getting to and from work every day, in the beginning it's just you who travels, but over time you have more and more things to carry with you- shovels and such. You buy a trailer. You find that with your trailer it's more difficult to see what is coming up behind you, so you buy side mirrors. You find that in the cold it's difficult to keep your hands warm, so you buy hand warmers, and lights on a dynamo. Eventually your bike is quite heavy, you carry much and requires much more effort to operate. But it has a lot of "features". This is the sunk cost fallacy in action. > Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! My userspace is absolutely not broken. Arguably it's less broken than yours but you've patched around the issues or are blind to them. Sway crashes for me less often than Xorg did; but I understand that Xorg and Wayland are not the same, and that took some getting used to, and indeed it was uncomfortable in the beginning. You are passionately arguing from a place of absolute ignorance, I have used both. I have used both professionally. I have used both for years. Yes, I replaced a lot of my normal programs. Yes, Wayland has issues, many of which could have been addressed if people weren't conservative. Not that I begrudge them for it, I believe choice is good. But, it's absolutely ignorant to claim that X11 has features. X11 does not have features, it has people willing to hack on it and an architecture that allows disgusting and ugly hacks to work. You might like that, I absolutely despise it- because malicious software exists (and I use it), things like Zoom which if given the opportunity would love to run as root and capture all my keystrokes. Things like Teams which on Android devices managed to block 911 calls. Things like Chrome which is attempting to be my userland. Ultimately, I trust my windowing system more than I trust random programs I may run to bind my hotkeys. > I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken. Wayland is not "fundamentally broken" it's been working for me professionally for years. The "features" you cite so often are non-features "my cursor can change color!" which are not inherent in x.org at all. Wayland "breaks" things that are designed to work exclusively with X11. Much like how graphics cards "break things" that are designed to work on a serial console. I must conclude that you're a troll. Honestly.
- 5y ago

dijit 5y ago

> I would gladly hop in a better car, if the newer car has less features and is worst, I will not. The ecosystem around bicycles is much better than the ecosystem around trucks. You are tasked with getting to and from work every day, in the beginning it's just you who travels, but over time you have more and more things to carry with you- shovels and such. You buy a trailer. You find that with your trailer it's more difficult to see what is coming up behind you, so you buy side mirrors. You find that in the cold it's difficult to keep your hands warm, so you buy hand warmers, and lights on a dynamo. Eventually your bike is quite heavy, you carry much and requires much more effort to operate. But it has a lot of "features". This is the sunk cost fallacy in action. > Do you love broken userspace? That's great, choose a compositor that breaks your userspace? My mentality of having robust software is the opposite. Suprise! My userspace is absolutely not broken. Arguably it's less broken than yours but you've patched around the issues or are blind to them. Sway crashes for me less often than Xorg did; but I understand that Xorg and Wayland are not the same, and that took some getting used to, and indeed it was uncomfortable in the beginning. You are passionately arguing from a place of absolute ignorance, I have used both. I have used both professionally. I have used both for years. Yes, I replaced a lot of my normal programs. Yes, Wayland has issues, many of which could have been addressed if people weren't conservative. Not that I begrudge them for it, I believe choice is good. But, it's absolutely ignorant to claim that X11 has features. X11 does not have features, it has people willing to hack on it and an architecture that allows disgusting and ugly hacks to work. You might like that, I absolutely despise it- because malicious software exists (and I use it), things like Zoom which if given the opportunity would love to run as root and capture all my keystrokes. Things like Teams which on Android devices managed to block 911 calls. Things like Chrome which is attempting to be my userland. Ultimately, I trust my windowing system more than I trust random programs I may run to bind my hotkeys. > I'll end by saying wayland is fundamentally broken. Wayland is not "fundamentally broken" it's been working for me professionally for years. The "features" you cite so often are non-features "my cursor can change color!" which are not inherent in x.org at all. Wayland "breaks" things that are designed to work exclusively with X11. Much like how graphics cards "break things" that are designed to work on a serial console. I must conclude that you're a troll. Honestly.

5y ago