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> All of the pilots flying the MAX would now receive even more in-depth training on the quirks of the new systems. One of the main issues was that, apart from

> All of the pilots flying the MAX would now receive even more in-depth training on the quirks of the new systems. One of the main issues was that, apart from an hour on an iPad pilots didn't receive training at all. "even more training" is disengeneous and makes you sound like a shill. I'm sorry to say. E: spello

0xy 5y ago
I don't work for nor hold stock in any airline or aviation manufacturer, I can just adequately judge risks. You are the one who thinks 180 separate, independent regulators colluded to protect a company at the risk of the people they are supposed to protect. Any argument against the MAX has to be against the regulators as well as Boeing itself. Why is the Dreamliner acceptable and the MAX is not? Same company manufactured and maintains them, after all.
- landemva 5y ago
  Different airframes. Different issues here.
- netjiro 5y ago
  > Why is the Dreamliner acceptable and the MAX is not? I remember [1?] hearing that Emirates threatened refusing 777s & 787s from one of Boeing's plants due to repeated quality control issues. Have not tracked the issue. > 180 separate, independent regulators colluded to protect Not necessarily. But if 180 _independent_ bodies were effectively independent, one of them would probably have found issues with the max. But they are not operating effectively independent. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/emirates-doubts-first-boeing-777x-will-come-before-2024-2021-05-24/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/emirates-doubts-fi...
  - 0xy 5y ago
    The MAX (before design updates and re-certification) has a fatal crash rate of 3.08 per million. Meanwhile 11.9 per 100,000 people die in car crashes. The MAX, before being fixed, was significantly safer than a car. Do you refuse to get in a car, since it's substantially more deadly than a MAX?
  - jim-jim-jim 5y ago
    The plant with the quality control issues is the non-unionized one.
WalterBright 5y ago
Pilots are trained in dealing with stabilizer trim runaway. The first crew to encounter the MCAS problem followed it (turned off the stab trim system), and landed safely. The second crew, on the same airplane, did not and crashed. (They never turned off the stab trim system.) http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/2018%20-%20035%20-%20PK-LQP%20Final%20Report.pdf http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/2018%20-%20... Boeing followed this up with an Emergency Airworthiness Directive, which was distributed to all MAX crews. It included a 2-step process for recovery. The EA crew did not follow that procedure: "Initially, higher control forces may be needed to overcome any stabilizer nose down trim already applied. Electric stabilizer trim can be used to neutralize control column pitch forces before moving the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches to CUTOUT. Manual stabilizer trim can be used before and after the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT." https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MAX-AD-1107.pdf https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MA... This does not absolve Boeing of the design flaw in MCAS where it only read data from one sensor, had too much authority, and would repeatedly engage after the pilot countermanded it.
- MarcoZavala 5y ago
- siva7 5y ago
  And again, victim blaming instead looking at the real perpetrator that is Boeing
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    It is the pilots' responsibility to READ, UNDERSTAND, REMEMBER and FOLLOW any Emergency Airworthiness Directives sent to them. Flying an airplane is not a joke. Pilots who are unwilling to do this should turn in their pilots' wings. Crashes are usually due to a combination of factors. Boeing certainly shares considerable blame for the poorly designed MCAS system. More issues: 1. how did a defective AOA sensor get past checks and be installed? 2. how did a defective AOA sensor pass inspection tests on the airplane? 3. why was the LA flight allowed to fly, when the previous flight experienced stab trim runaway? 4. why was the LA flight crew not informed of the anomalous behavior on the prior flight? Air travel is made safe by addressing all factors that led to an accident.
caspper69 5y ago
I think he means more training now. Not really disingenuous at all.
tiahura 5y ago
What’s remarkable is that MCAS functioned so well that not a single pilot had noticed it prior to Lion Air.

0xy 5y ago

I don't work for nor hold stock in any airline or aviation manufacturer, I can just adequately judge risks. You are the one who thinks 180 separate, independent regulators colluded to protect a company at the risk of the people they are supposed to protect. Any argument against the MAX has to be against the regulators as well as Boeing itself. Why is the Dreamliner acceptable and the MAX is not? Same company manufactured and maintains them, after all.

landemva 5y ago
Different airframes. Different issues here.
netjiro 5y ago
> Why is the Dreamliner acceptable and the MAX is not? I remember [1?] hearing that Emirates threatened refusing 777s & 787s from one of Boeing's plants due to repeated quality control issues. Have not tracked the issue. > 180 separate, independent regulators colluded to protect Not necessarily. But if 180 _independent_ bodies were effectively independent, one of them would probably have found issues with the max. But they are not operating effectively independent. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/emirates-doubts-first-boeing-777x-will-come-before-2024-2021-05-24/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/emirates-doubts-fi...
- 0xy 5y ago
  The MAX (before design updates and re-certification) has a fatal crash rate of 3.08 per million. Meanwhile 11.9 per 100,000 people die in car crashes. The MAX, before being fixed, was significantly safer than a car. Do you refuse to get in a car, since it's substantially more deadly than a MAX?
- jim-jim-jim 5y ago
  The plant with the quality control issues is the non-unionized one.

WalterBright 5y ago

Pilots are trained in dealing with stabilizer trim runaway. The first crew to encounter the MCAS problem followed it (turned off the stab trim system), and landed safely. The second crew, on the same airplane, did not and crashed. (They never turned off the stab trim system.) http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/2018%20-%20035%20-%20PK-LQP%20Final%20Report.pdf http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/2018%20-%20... Boeing followed this up with an Emergency Airworthiness Directive, which was distributed to all MAX crews. It included a 2-step process for recovery. The EA crew did not follow that procedure: "Initially, higher control forces may be needed to overcome any stabilizer nose down trim already applied. Electric stabilizer trim can be used to neutralize control column pitch forces before moving the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches to CUTOUT. Manual stabilizer trim can be used before and after the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT." https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MAX-AD-1107.pdf https://theaircurrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/B737-MA... This does not absolve Boeing of the design flaw in MCAS where it only read data from one sensor, had too much authority, and would repeatedly engage after the pilot countermanded it.

MarcoZavala 5y ago
siva7 5y ago
And again, victim blaming instead looking at the real perpetrator that is Boeing
- WalterBright 5y ago
  It is the pilots' responsibility to READ, UNDERSTAND, REMEMBER and FOLLOW any Emergency Airworthiness Directives sent to them. Flying an airplane is not a joke. Pilots who are unwilling to do this should turn in their pilots' wings. Crashes are usually due to a combination of factors. Boeing certainly shares considerable blame for the poorly designed MCAS system. More issues: 1. how did a defective AOA sensor get past checks and be installed? 2. how did a defective AOA sensor pass inspection tests on the airplane? 3. why was the LA flight allowed to fly, when the previous flight experienced stab trim runaway? 4. why was the LA flight crew not informed of the anomalous behavior on the prior flight? Air travel is made safe by addressing all factors that led to an accident.

caspper69 5y ago

I think he means more training now. Not really disingenuous at all.

tiahura 5y ago

What’s remarkable is that MCAS functioned so well that not a single pilot had noticed it prior to Lion Air.