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I don't use java and have never touched log4j, but structured logs are utterly fantastic and combined with an appropriate log server are far more useful than pl

I don't use java and have never touched log4j, but structured logs are utterly fantastic and combined with an appropriate log server are far more useful than plain text.

lmm 5y ago
Structured logging is great, but it's vital to keep them structured all the way through. Having an API where you pass a string and then something on the other side tries to parse that string back into structured data is a recipe for disaster.
throw_m239339 5y ago
There is a difference between structured log and something that interprets these logs to create shells down the stack, inside a log library... Nobody is questioning the benefits of structured logs here. The log library itself shouldn't be interpreting these logs. It's like a HTTP framework... triggering a printer, why the hell would it be doing that by default? Seems to me that Log4j is doing to many things, including things it shouldn't be concerned with, as a log library.
- markmark 5y ago
  > Nobody is questioning the benefits of structured logs here. The guy I replied to was literally saying we should only log plain text and that doing anything more complicated is "emblematic of the crisis the industry is in".
jrockway 5y ago
I like structured logging but structured logging takes you away from a domain-specific language. Instead of log.Infof("fooed the bar: %v, baz=%v", msg, baz), you'd be writing log.Info("fooed the bar", zap.String("msg", msg), zap.Int("baz", baz)). The attack surface is pretty low here, even though you're doing more than just printing to a file. There is no code injection because there is no programming language going on behind the scenes. (Of course, nothing is preventing you from writing a formatting function that compiles and runs a binary built from the log message. So you aren't intrinsically safe from stupid stuff.)
xorcist 5y ago
Parsing java logs isn't fun. Lots of libraries do their own mini-formats, suddenly multi-line stacktraces appear.

I don't use java and have never touched log4j, but structured logs are utterly fantastic and combined with an appropriate log server are far more useful than plain text.

lmm 5y ago

Structured logging is great, but it's vital to keep them structured all the way through. Having an API where you pass a string and then something on the other side tries to parse that string back into structured data is a recipe for disaster.

throw_m239339 5y ago

There is a difference between structured log and something that interprets these logs to create shells down the stack, inside a log library... Nobody is questioning the benefits of structured logs here. The log library itself shouldn't be interpreting these logs. It's like a HTTP framework... triggering a printer, why the hell would it be doing that by default? Seems to me that Log4j is doing to many things, including things it shouldn't be concerned with, as a log library.

markmark 5y ago
> Nobody is questioning the benefits of structured logs here. The guy I replied to was literally saying we should only log plain text and that doing anything more complicated is "emblematic of the crisis the industry is in".

jrockway 5y ago

I like structured logging but structured logging takes you away from a domain-specific language. Instead of log.Infof("fooed the bar: %v, baz=%v", msg, baz), you'd be writing log.Info("fooed the bar", zap.String("msg", msg), zap.Int("baz", baz)). The attack surface is pretty low here, even though you're doing more than just printing to a file. There is no code injection because there is no programming language going on behind the scenes. (Of course, nothing is preventing you from writing a formatting function that compiles and runs a binary built from the log message. So you aren't intrinsically safe from stupid stuff.)

xorcist 5y ago

Parsing java logs isn't fun. Lots of libraries do their own mini-formats, suddenly multi-line stacktraces appear.